Duckie, Don’t really understand it all, but sorry you have this. Keep us posted on the follow-up. debbie m. http://www.angelfire.com/ga2/angels1/
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Well, wish for something and sometimes those wishes come true. > Let’s just say that they found three things: inflammation of the > thyroid, cysts, and nodule. > Want to see a PCP freak out — then you should have been in the office > with me today. hehehe She kept saying that with my blood labs, there > was no way all this could be going on. Now where have I heard that > before. She also said having a normal TSH and a low T4 was VERY unusual. > I am sure someone on this group has had just that happen too. Are the > ones on this group that hang around the ones that have everything > unusual, worse than unusual, different, non responsive,…… Or are we > just lucky. > I have been worked in for a Friday appointment with the endocrinologist. > In the mean time here is the paper work results from the ultrasound. > Ultrasound of the thyroid and doppler: > Findings: > Regarding the right thyroid lobe, it is heterogeneous and abnormally > vascular and has a complex cyst in the lower pole measuring 1.3 cm in > length X 1.2 cm across with a depth of 1.1 cm with no vascularity to the > solid part within it. This complex cyst is a larger solid mass, very > vascular measuring 1.5 cm in length and heterogeneous with no anechoic > or shadowing areas with. On transverse view, it measures 1.3 cm across > with length of 1.1 cm. There are two tiny anechoic areas within this > heterogeneous mass but no shadowing foci. > Regarding the left thyroid lobe, it is abnormally vascular in general, > matches the right lobe, and has solid nodule of the lower pole .5 cm in > length X .7 cm across with depth of .5 cm with some increased > vascularity to this nodule. There is also complex cyst if the left pole > of this left thyroid lobe with length measurement of 1 cm and transverse > dimension of 1 with a depth of .6 cm. There is no vascularity to this > complex cyst. The echogenic area in this cyst is not vascular. > Impression: > You are screwed. opps sorry editorial comment there > 1. Bilateral hyperemia of the thyroid lobe consistent with inflammatory > change with complex cysts bilaterally but also a large solid nodule, > very heterogeneous of the right thyroid lobe, and a small hypoechoic, > more clearly defined solid nodule in the left lower pole, question > adenoma for the small one. > Need follow-up of the larger very vascular mass. [no kidding] > Duckie > — > _(‘> > (_<_) > _ > _(‘< -quack > (_<_) > _ > __(‘< *QUACK!* > <_{__) > _(‘< "|,,|_" > (_<_) > _(‘< "AFLAC!" > (_<_)
Call me when you get back from the Endo tomorrow, OK? Char "Remember, I’m pulling for ya’. We’re all in this together." Red Green
Yes Mama. 
Duckie > Call me when you get back from the Endo tomorrow, OK? > Char > "Remember, I’m pulling for ya’. > We’re all in this together." Red Green
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Ask your RD to do it. Duckie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hmmmmmmm, Carol, that is very interesting to hear! My TSH has always > come back in the normal range, but I have a multinodular thyroid as > well. I had thyroid biopsies done about a year ago after an ultrasound > of the thyroid showed lots of nodules and some of them rather large. > The radiologist is the one who did the biopsies (8 in all! yuk!) under > the guidance of the ultrasound. My pcp and endo both said that as long > as the biopsies were non-cancerous and the TSH was normal, that there > wasn’t anything to worry about. Now I am reading of your guys’ > symptoms and that you both had normal TSH and it makes me wonder. > Don’t know though if I can talk either one into doing the t4 test just > for the heck of it! > Interesting though following this thread!!! > Donna G
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Yep she mention the biopsy possibility. She was so worried and upset — probably because she and the endo had done the TSH [wish I knew whether they had done the T4 before] and since that was normal, I must be okay. Obviously since the ultrasound was abnormal to say the least, there was stuff going on that blood labs just didn’t show them. It was my RD that ordered the full thyroid set. I just love that man. Less than 24 till I see the endo now. I went to my sewing circle today and just those three hours out — I am exhausted. Duckie
…… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Did your PCP mention anything about the possibility of the endo > ordering a biopsy? I would bet you’ll have to have one. Although I > don’t think the endo’s do them..I think an ENT doc does the biopsies. > I haven’t had to have one because the synthroid shrunk my nodules or > at least I think it did…it certainly alleviated all the crappy stuff > I had going on! > Keep us posted and good luck at the endo appointment! I really like > my endo…have to have him repeat a lot of things cuz I have trouble > understanding him at times, but he’s always nice about it. He’s very > knowledgeable about everything…a lot more than most docs. When I go > there now, the first thing he asks me is how my RA is doing. I think > that’s funny considering he’s not treating me for that! > Carol
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Hmmmmmmm, Carol, that is very interesting to hear! My TSH has always come back in the normal range, but I have a multinodular thyroid as well. I had thyroid biopsies done about a year ago after an ultrasound of the thyroid showed lots of nodules and some of them rather large. The radiologist is the one who did the biopsies (8 in all! yuk!) under the guidance of the ultrasound. My pcp and endo both said that as long as the biopsies were non-cancerous and the TSH was normal, that there wasn’t anything to worry about. Now I am reading of your guys’ symptoms and that you both had normal TSH and it makes me wonder. Don’t know though if I can talk either one into doing the t4 test just for the heck of it! Interesting though following this thread!!! Donna G
My endo says that if you are having symptoms of hypothyroidism and you have the nodules, you should be treated…even if your TSH is within normal values. He says that what is normal thyroid functioning for one person, may be underactive for another. In other words, some people feel better when their TSH counts are closer to the hyper range. If yours are pretty close to the hypo range (which is a higher number on a TSH) and your T4 is low, that is indicative of hypothyroidism. And I’ll tell you, Donna!! The synthroid made a huge difference for me!! I thanked my endo over and over and over again for helping me. Geezopeet…I felt like total crap!! Are you seeing an endocronologist on a regular basis? You should be having T4 and T3 counts done, along with the TSH. I have thyroid tests done about twice a year to monitor my counts….he orders a TSH and the other two. Also, has anyone ever done a test…can’t remember the name of it….for they autoimmune thyroid diseases…Hashimoto’s. Grave’s Disease is the hyper version. I think I remember reading that people with Hashimotos will sometimes test within the normal ranges on a TSH. I had the test, but mine came out negative for Hashi’s. An untreated underactive thyriod can lead to big problems. People don’t realize how important that thyroid gland is. Hey, wanna come to Sandusky and see my endocronologist? heehee! He’s really nice. Carol
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hmmmmmmm, Carol, that is very interesting to hear! My TSH has always > come back in the normal range, but I have a multinodular thyroid as > well. I had thyroid biopsies done about a year ago after an ultrasound > of the thyroid showed lots of nodules and some of them rather large. > The radiologist is the one who did the biopsies (8 in all! yuk!) under > the guidance of the ultrasound. My pcp and endo both said that as long > as the biopsies were non-cancerous and the TSH was normal, that there > wasn’t anything to worry about. Now I am reading of your guys’ > symptoms and that you both had normal TSH and it makes me wonder. > Don’t know though if I can talk either one into doing the t4 test just > for the heck of it! > Interesting though following this thread!!! > Donna G
Carol, No, I am not seeing an endocrinologist with any regularity at all! I did not care for the one I saw and she seemed like she just never really cared. She only tested for the TSH and said everything is fine, she then ordered the thyroid ultrasound and the biopsies and when that showed no cancer, she basically said I don’t really need to see you any more unless there is a problem. No, have not had any tests for the hashimotos thyroid. I truly have only had the TSH because that’s what the endo here said is all that is needed and that there wasn’t a need for anything else and that there was no problems with my thyroid other than I have a ton of nodules. Well, I think there is a problem, but my pcp also only goes by the TSH also, so there you have it. Don’t laugh Carol, I may very well take you up on your offer to come see your endo. Sandusky really isn’t that far of a drive for me, especially if I only had to do it a couple of times a year, and it might be worth it just to have the full thyroid workup done. Besides, it would give me a good excuse to come meet up with you! LOLOL! Donna G
lol — good luck tomorrow Bruce. Duckie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Well I get to see my PCP tomorrow; can’t wait to see if he got the letter > from the Rheumy yet. Will be interesting to see if he offers me my pain > medication or if I have to ask for it, This guy is a gem but I may have to > polish him a bit tomorrow or threaten to sick my Rheumy on Him…….that he > would not like! She’s vicious. > Bruce
(((((((((((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))))))))) and love. keeping you in my prayers. kate
No – I can’t apparently. All I wished for was a simple problem. Figures. I will take those prayers. Friday seems a long way off. Duckie > Good lord, girl!! Cant you do ANYTHING simply? > Prayers coming that these are all benign conditions, and that an extra pill a > day, will take care of the problems. > Please let us know what the Endocrinologist says, ASAP. > Char > "Remember, I’m pulling for ya’. > We’re all in this together." Red Green
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That was me who had a normal TSH and low T4!!! And I am usually kinda strange when it comes to my medical stuff! (even had shingles when I was 10 years old!…that’s weird!) I can’t remember exactly what my thyroid ultrasound showed…other than the final diagnosis was "a multinodular goiter". I don’t remember my report being as wordy as yours is. I will tell you though, that a neurologist is the doc who told me my thyroid tests were abnormal because the ratio was off…whatever that meant. (My PCP didn’t think anything was abnormal because the TSH is supposedly a much more accurate test than the T4 of thyroid function) My PCP started me on synthroid immediately after talking with the neurologist and then I had the ultrasound…after that I was referred to the endo. My PCP was also shocked by the ultrasound results and even told me to sit down when he called to tell me. Did your PCP mention anything about the possibility of the endo ordering a biopsy? I would bet you’ll have to have one. Although I don’t think the endo’s do them..I think an ENT doc does the biopsies. I haven’t had to have one because the synthroid shrunk my nodules or at least I think it did…it certainly alleviated all the crappy stuff I had going on! Keep us posted and good luck at the endo appointment! I really like my endo…have to have him repeat a lot of things cuz I have trouble understanding him at times, but he’s always nice about it. He’s very knowledgeable about everything…a lot more than most docs. When I go there now, the first thing he asks me is how my RA is doing. I think that’s funny considering he’s not treating me for that! Carol
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Well, wish for something and sometimes those wishes come true. > Let’s just say that they found three things: inflammation of the > thyroid, cysts, and nodule. > Want to see a PCP freak out — then you should have been in the office > with me today. hehehe She kept saying that with my blood labs, there > was no way all this could be going on. Now where have I heard that > before. She also said having a normal TSH and a low T4 was VERY unusual. > I am sure someone on this group has had just that happen too. Are the > ones on this group that hang around the ones that have everything > unusual, worse than unusual, different, non responsive,…… Or are we > just lucky. > I have been worked in for a Friday appointment with the endocrinologist. > In the mean time here is the paper work results from the ultrasound. > Ultrasound of the thyroid and doppler: > Findings: > Regarding the right thyroid lobe, it is heterogeneous and abnormally > vascular and has a complex cyst in the lower pole measuring 1.3 cm in > length X 1.2 cm across with a depth of 1.1 cm with no vascularity to the > solid part within it. This complex cyst is a larger solid mass, very > vascular measuring 1.5 cm in length and heterogeneous with no anechoic > or shadowing areas with. On transverse view, it measures 1.3 cm across > with length of 1.1 cm. There are two tiny anechoic areas within this > heterogeneous mass but no shadowing foci. > Regarding the left thyroid lobe, it is abnormally vascular in general, > matches the right lobe, and has solid nodule of the lower pole .5 cm in > length X .7 cm across with depth of .5 cm with some increased > vascularity to this nodule. There is also complex cyst if the left pole > of this left thyroid lobe with length measurement of 1 cm and transverse > dimension of 1 with a depth of .6 cm. There is no vascularity to this > complex cyst. The echogenic area in this cyst is not vascular. > Impression: > You are screwed. opps sorry editorial comment there > 1. Bilateral hyperemia of the thyroid lobe consistent with inflammatory > change with complex cysts bilaterally but also a large solid nodule, > very heterogeneous of the right thyroid lobe, and a small hypoechoic, > more clearly defined solid nodule in the left lower pole, question > adenoma for the small one. > Need follow-up of the larger very vascular mass. [no kidding] > Duckie > — > _(‘> > (_<_) > _ > _(‘< -quack > (_<_) > _ > __(‘< *QUACK!* > <_{__) > _(‘< "|,,|_" > (_<_) > _(‘< "AFLAC!" > (_<_)
Well I get to see my PCP tomorrow; can’t wait to see if he got the letter from the Rheumy yet. Will be interesting to see if he offers me my pain medication or if I have to ask for it, This guy is a gem but I may have to polish him a bit tomorrow or threaten to sick my Rheumy on Him…….that he would not like! She’s vicious. Bruce — Success is not in never falling, but in rising every time you fall
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I don’t understand it either and it took me half an hour to type it in. > LOL Friday can’t come soon enough. > Duckie > Duckie, > Don’t really understand it all, but sorry you have this. Keep us posted on > the follow-up. > debbie m. > http://www.angelfire.com/ga2/angels1/
Duckie, Good luck at your appointment on friday. Hope they can sort it all out for you quickly and get you to feeling better as far as the thyroid stuff goes!!! Keep us posted on how it all works out! Donna G
Good luck to you tomorrow Bruce!!! Really keeping my fingers crossed for you. Let us know how it goes! Donna G
I don’t understand it either and it took me half an hour to type it in. LOL Friday can’t come soon enough. Duckie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Duckie, > Don’t really understand it all, but sorry you have this. Keep us posted on > the follow-up. > debbie m. > http://www.angelfire.com/ga2/angels1/
Good lord, girl!! Cant you do ANYTHING simply? Prayers coming that these are all benign conditions, and that an extra pill a day, will take care of the problems. Please let us know what the Endocrinologist says, ASAP. Char "Remember, I’m pulling for ya’. We’re all in this together." Red Green
No – I can’t apparently. All I wished for was a simple problem. Figures. I will take those prayers. Friday seems a long way off. Duckie > Good lord, girl!! Cant you do ANYTHING simply? > Prayers coming that these are all benign conditions, and that an extra pill a > day, will take care of the problems. > Please let us know what the Endocrinologist says, ASAP. > Char > "Remember, I’m pulling for ya’. > We’re all in this together." Red Green
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>Want to see a PCP freak out — then you should have been in the office >with me today. hehehe She kept saying that with my blood labs, there >was no way all this could be going on.
Yucky, double yuck! What is she proposing to do about it? maybe it is time to visit an endrocrinologist (sp?) I have an under – over active thyroid but it has been pretty consistent lately. Why did they want you to go through an ultra sound? Visit my website: http://www.mzuschlag.com
She trotted down the hallway and got on her knees with the endocrinologist begging to work me in this week. They have and it is Friday. They sent me to ultrasound because the T4 came back low even though TSH was normal. And because I whined to my RD that I had a sort of lump thing going on and turtlenecks were annoying it. He ordered the blood labs. I think the PCP saw the results of those and ordered the ultrasound. Updates to follow. Duckie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Want to see a PCP freak out — then you should have been in the office >with me today. hehehe She kept saying that with my blood labs, there >was no way all this could be going on. > Yucky, double yuck! What is she proposing to do about it? maybe it > is time to visit an endrocrinologist (sp?) I have an under – over > active thyroid but it has been pretty consistent lately. Why did they > want you to go through an ultra sound? > Visit my website: > http://www.mzuschlag.com
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Well, wish for something and sometimes those wishes come true. Let’s just say that they found three things: inflammation of the thyroid, cysts, and nodule. Want to see a PCP freak out — then you should have been in the office with me today. hehehe She kept saying that with my blood labs, there was no way all this could be going on. Now where have I heard that before. She also said having a normal TSH and a low T4 was VERY unusual. I am sure someone on this group has had just that happen too. Are the ones on this group that hang around the ones that have everything unusual, worse than unusual, different, non responsive,…… Or are we just lucky. I have been worked in for a Friday appointment with the endocrinologist. In the mean time here is the paper work results from the ultrasound. Ultrasound of the thyroid and doppler: Findings: Regarding the right thyroid lobe, it is heterogeneous and abnormally vascular and has a complex cyst in the lower pole measuring 1.3 cm in length X 1.2 cm across with a depth of 1.1 cm with no vascularity to the solid part within it. This complex cyst is a larger solid mass, very vascular measuring 1.5 cm in length and heterogeneous with no anechoic or shadowing areas with. On transverse view, it measures 1.3 cm across with length of 1.1 cm. There are two tiny anechoic areas within this heterogeneous mass but no shadowing foci. Regarding the left thyroid lobe, it is abnormally vascular in general, matches the right lobe, and has solid nodule of the lower pole .5 cm in length X .7 cm across with depth of .5 cm with some increased vascularity to this nodule. There is also complex cyst if the left pole of this left thyroid lobe with length measurement of 1 cm and transverse dimension of 1 with a depth of .6 cm. There is no vascularity to this complex cyst. The echogenic area in this cyst is not vascular. Impression: You are screwed. opps sorry editorial comment there 1. Bilateral hyperemia of the thyroid lobe consistent with inflammatory change with complex cysts bilaterally but also a large solid nodule, very heterogeneous of the right thyroid lobe, and a small hypoechoic, more clearly defined solid nodule in the left lower pole, question adenoma for the small one. Need follow-up of the larger very vascular mass. [no kidding] Duckie — _(‘> (_<_) _ _(‘< -quack (_<_) _ __(‘< *QUACK!* <_{__) _(‘< "|,,|_" (_<_) _(‘< "AFLAC!" (_<_)
Ken that was a good article on Osteoporosis. I had been on Heparin due to a clotting disorder that 3% of all Chron’s patients can develop. I was fracturing bones all the time, so we did a bone biopsy and found that the bone chip was full of Heparin,and I ended up with Osteoporosis. I’m now back on Coumadin IV-push. Also, I wanted to tell all of you, if you have had your colon removed make sure you drink at least 10-12 full glasses of water daily. I developed kidney stones, as soon as I had taken my colon out. Your large intestine primarily holds 1-2 cups of water, and was functioning to flush the kidneys. Without it, you need to do it on your own by forcing fluid through the kidneys. Believe me, you’ll be sorry if you dont. Stones hurt like —-! Angelj1001
Angelj1001 wrote : > < >I had been on Heparin due to a clotting disorder that 3% of all Chron’s > patients can develop. < >
Could you tell us more about this clotting disorder? Thanks. Robert Silver
Fosamax is not a good calsium vitiam to take when you have crohns it can give more problem with the stomach irritation there is a proven fact about this. love, your friend krissy
Thats good to know!! thanks….never heard of Fosomax being a calcium vitamin….Fosomax from my understanding is a drug and like most drugs there is a side effect to them…Personally though i just makke sure i am getting all my vitamins and minerals and i have done excellent by this…
Fosamax is not a good calsium vitiam to take when you have crohns it can give more problem with the stomach irritation there is a proven fact about this. love, your friend krissy
I have osteoporosis and all the broken bones to prove it. Fosomax can be an irritant to your stomach if not taken properly, but when taken properly can really help keep the disease from getting worse. Some people, like me, have real problems with this disease. I am lactose intolerant, I have had a hysterectomy(which means no hormones naturally which help against bone loss in women), I lost my large intestine 10 years ago to cancer which makes vitamin absorbsion very difficult. All of this together means I need all the help I can get. With all my broken bones especially in my left leg, I find exercise which does help very hard and smetimes impossible. Please keep an open mind about certain medications and vitamins, because sometimes there are the only alternative. Thanks for letting me lecture. tee-hee! Love with hugs & kisses Susan
Osteoporosis is an epidemic nutritional deficiency in the United states!There are more than 25 million Americans who have osteoporosis,and the cost to the economy of the United States is about 14 billion dollars.At least 1.2 billion fractures occur each year in the US as a direct result of osteoporosis. Calcium is an essential nutrient in the fight against osteoporosis.Calcium should be taken in supplementation at a level of 800 to 1500 mg daily. Magnesium is important in several biochemical reactions that take place within the bone.Alkaline phosphatase,which is an enzyme that is required in the process of forming new bone crystals, is activated by magnesium.Vitamin D needs magnesium to convert it to its most active form. Vitamin K is required to synthesize osteocalcin, a protein found in large amounts within the bone.It is therefore critical in bone formation,remodeling, and repair. Vitamin D is necessary for the absorption of calcium. Manganese is necessary for the synthesis of connective tissue in cartilage and bone. Folic Acid, Vitamin B6, and Vitamin B12 cause Homocysteine is not only bad for your blood vessels,but it is also bad for your bones. Boron when given in supplementation, the urinary excretion of calcium decreases by some 40%.Also there is a significant increase in 17 beta-estradiol,which is the most biologically active form of human estrogen. Silicon is important in its ability to strengthen the connective tissue matrix by cross-linking collagen strands. Zinc is essential for the normal functioning of Vitamin D.
Thanks for this, Ken. A couple of things I’ve read too. – weight bearing exercise is esstential for maintaining bone mass – steroids can reduce bone mass even with short course of treatment – suppliments and exercise are good ways to maintain bone mass, but don’t always rebuild it – there are medications that can help build bone mass (one is called Fosamax and I have a research paper about it on my home page — the URL is below) — Jason Smith Coping with IBD? Me too! – check out http://www.passport.ca/~pax —Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.—
Hills do not add more weight to your body, but they make you lift it more! Chris – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hills do NOT add ‘more weight bearing’. That would be like saying that you > weigh more when walking on hills. Running or jumping increase weight bearing > because you have to bear your WHOLE weight. When you walk you always have one > foot on the ground. Hills add more of an aerobic aspect to the walk and use > different muscles but that’s about all. > Debs >Good point, weight bearing exercise is important or exercise in general. I >would start out slowly. Walking and especially walking up and down hills is >very good. The hills will add more of the weight bearing aspect to the >activity. >Regards, >Jeff 2 >>>My gi called me today to let me know I have osteoporosis from the >>>prednisone. She told me to start taking calcium. However I have been >>>taking calcium for months. Is anyone on any medication for this? >>Yes, you can take Fosamax,or calcitonin (sp?). Talk to your doctor about >> it. If you don’t get a lot of sun you should also take vitamin D. >>Wieght bearing exercise is also important. Walking, or jogging, and >>light weightlifting are good choices. Talk to the doc. before you start >>any heavy weightlifting, or contact sports, you may be at risk for >>fractures. Also check out the website: http://www.fore.org/ >>for more info. >>Chris
> Thanks for you suggestions and for the emails. I am taking 10 150 mg > capsules of Calcium. I will ask my doctor about fosamax. I didnt > know that excercise would help. I guess this will be a good time to > start a program. I am really quite out of shape.
Time to start walking then! You may even find that exercise helps your other IBD symptoms as well. I say find an exercise buddy and start out with reasonable goals. Say walk a half hour three times per week. Then try to build up from there. I belong to a gym and I see a lot of people that say they will exercise 6 times per week for an hour each day. They almost alway quit within a couple weeks. Chris
Thank you that is what I was trying to say but no conveying too well! Debs – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hills do not add more weight to your body, but they make you lift it more! > Chris > Hills do NOT add ‘more weight bearing’. That would be like saying that you > weigh more when walking on hills. Running or jumping increase weight bearing > because you have to bear your WHOLE weight. When you walk you always have one > foot on the ground. Hills add more of an aerobic aspect to the walk and use > different muscles but that’s about all. > Debs >>Good point, weight bearing exercise is important or exercise in general. I >>would start out slowly. Walking and especially walking up and down hills is >>very good. The hills will add more of the weight bearing aspect to the >>activity. >>Regards, >>Jeff 2 >>>>My gi called me today to let me know I have osteoporosis from the >>>>prednisone. She told me to start taking calcium. However I have been >>>>taking calcium for months. Is anyone on any medication for this? >>>Yes, you can take Fosamax,or calcitonin (sp?). Talk to your doctor about >>> it. If you don’t get a lot of sun you should also take vitamin D. >>>Wieght bearing exercise is also important. Walking, or jogging, and >>>light weightlifting are good choices. Talk to the doc. before you start >>>any heavy weightlifting, or contact sports, you may be at risk for >>>fractures. Also check out the website: http://www.fore.org/ >>>for more info. >>>Chris
Yes, you are lifting your weight, that means weight lifting, which means weight bearing. 
Another factor which applies to all walking whether flat or hilly terrain is that when you walk your body creates an electrical current. This current has been studied and I have read that it has been credited with the bones to "grow". Also I believe that the heat generated plays a part as well. Regards, Jeff 2
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Thank you that is what I was trying to say but no conveying too well! > Debs > Hills do not add more weight to your body, but they make you lift it more! > Chris > > Hills do NOT add ‘more weight bearing’. That would be like saying that you > > weigh more when walking on hills. Running or jumping increase weight bearing > > because you have to bear your WHOLE weight. When you walk you always have one > > foot on the ground. Hills add more of an aerobic aspect to the walk and use > > different muscles but that’s about all. > > Debs > >>Good point, weight bearing exercise is important or exercise in general. I > >>would start out slowly. Walking and especially walking up and down hills is > >>very good. The hills will add more of the weight bearing aspect to the > >>activity. > >>Regards, > >>Jeff 2
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >>>>My gi called me today to let me know I have osteoporosis from the > >>>>prednisone. She told me to start taking calcium. However I have been > >>>>taking calcium for months. Is anyone on any medication for this? > >>>Yes, you can take Fosamax,or calcitonin (sp?). Talk to your doctor about > >>> it. If you don’t get a lot of sun you should also take vitamin D. > >>>Wieght bearing exercise is also important. Walking, or jogging, and > >>>light weightlifting are good choices. Talk to the doc. before you start > >>>any heavy weightlifting, or contact sports, you may be at risk for > >>>fractures. Also check out the website: http://www.fore.org/ > >>>for more info. > >>>Chris
If you take a hill and carve out a flat place to step for each step then you have stairs. Stairs are simply a hill with a flat spot that you step on instead of an inclined spot that you step on. Hope this helps. Jeff2 – who used to be a big fan of Mr Wizard.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> When you walk up a hill you always have one foot on the ground, part of the > definition of walking. Force and weight are two different things. I stand by > that. Walking up a hill and up stairs are NOT the same thing. I have said the > forces are different based on incline and that you use different muscles but > the weight is the same. weight = mass x gravity. > Debs > When you go up a hill or up a stair you are lifting that weight. This does > not happen on a flat surface. > Try going up 10 flights of stairs and then tell me you did not lift weights. > Regards, > Jeff 2 > > But extra stress is not extra weight. IIRC weight= mass x gravity and your > mass > > is the same and the gravity is the same on an incline and a flat road. > Stress > > is another situation. > > Debs > > > Wow you sound just like my physical therapist after surgery! That’s > > > exactly what they told me and that I had to be careful about to prevent > bone > > > stress fractures until my body got stonger and healed. UM MOM Susan > > > > >> Good point, weight bearing exercise is important or exercise in > > > general. I > > > > >> would start out slowly. Walking and especially walking up and down > > > hills is > > > > >> very good. The hills will add more of the weight bearing aspect to > the > > > > >> activity. > > > > >> Regards, > > > > >> Jeff 2 > > > > >Hills do NOT add ‘more weight bearing’. That would be like saying > that > > > you > > > > >weigh more when walking on hills. Running or jumping increase weight > > > bearing > > > > >because you have to bear your WHOLE weight. When you walk you always > have > > > one > > > > >foot on the ground. Hills add more of an aerobic aspect to the walk > and > > > use > > > > >different muscles but that’s about all. > > > > Nonsense. Your weight is taken on almost straight legs when walking on > > > > the flat. Walking up hill means you have to lever your weight upwards > > > > using knee and gluteus. This extra muscular effort throws extra stress > > > > on the bones concerned. Walking down hill stresses different muscles, > > > > and stresses the bones in a different way. The leverage of weight > > > > bearing muscles puts far more stress on the bones than simple standing > > > > on a nearly straight leg, because of the lever moments. The forces on > > > > the bones don’t simply relate to your weight at all because of these > > > > lever moments, which can exert much larger bending forces in lifting > > > > the weight. > > > > — > > > > School of Artificial Intelligence, Division of Informatics > > > > Edinburgh University, 5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK > > > > [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/daidb/people/homes/cam/ ] DoD #205
Deb – try examining the dynamics of going up a hill closer. I have studied movement for many years and it is clear that when going up a hill you have to lift your body up with each step. See which muscles are used next time you climb a hill. You will notice your quads and gluts are working harder. You may need to climb a bit to notice this but I am sure you will discover this to be correct. Thanks, Jeff 2
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> When you walk up a hill you always have one foot on the ground, part of the > definition of walking. Force and weight are two different things. I stand by > that. Walking up a hill and up stairs are NOT the same thing. I have said the > forces are different based on incline and that you use different muscles but > the weight is the same. weight = mass x gravity. > Debs > When you go up a hill or up a stair you are lifting that weight. This does > not happen on a flat surface. > Try going up 10 flights of stairs and then tell me you did not lift weights. > Regards, > Jeff 2 > > But extra stress is not extra weight. IIRC weight= mass x gravity and your > mass > > is the same and the gravity is the same on an incline and a flat road. > Stress > > is another situation. > > Debs > > > Wow you sound just like my physical therapist after surgery! That’s > > > exactly what they told me and that I had to be careful about to prevent > bone > > > stress fractures until my body got stonger and healed. UM MOM Susan > > > > >> Good point, weight bearing exercise is important or exercise in > > > general. I > > > > >> would start out slowly. Walking and especially walking up and down > > > hills is > > > > >> very good. The hills will add more of the weight bearing aspect to > the > > > > >> activity. > > > > >> Regards, > > > > >> Jeff 2 > > > > >Hills do NOT add ‘more weight bearing’. That would be like saying > that > > > you > > > > >weigh more when walking on hills. Running or jumping increase weight > > > bearing > > > > >because you have to bear your WHOLE weight. When you walk you always > have > > > one > > > > >foot on the ground. Hills add more of an aerobic aspect to the walk > and > > > use > > > > >different muscles but that’s about all. > > > > Nonsense. Your weight is taken on almost straight legs when walking on > > > > the flat. Walking up hill means you have to lever your weight upwards > > > > using knee and gluteus. This extra muscular effort throws extra stress > > > > on the bones concerned. Walking down hill stresses different muscles, > > > > and stresses the bones in a different way. The leverage of weight > > > > bearing muscles puts far more stress on the bones than simple standing > > > > on a nearly straight leg, because of the lever moments. The forces on > > > > the bones don’t simply relate to your weight at all because of these > > > > lever moments, which can exert much larger bending forces in lifting > > > > the weight. > > > > — > > > > School of Artificial Intelligence, Division of Informatics > > > > Edinburgh University, 5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK > > > > [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/daidb/people/homes/cam/ ] DoD #205
OK, walk up Beacon Hill and see if your thighs don’t feel the burn. Your front leg has to push up when you go up a hill. Climbing a hill is almost the same as climbing stairs. When you climb stairs one foot is always on the ground, unless you can fly, so when you say one foot is on the ground that is not a valid arguement – IMHO. When you move 150 lbs up 100 feet then you have lifted weight whether up stairs or whatever level incline. Moving in a horizontal direction does not lift as much weight although there is some lifting due to the fact that you are supporting the weight of your body during each transition of weight shift. As you walk, the weight shifts from one leg to the other and so you are supporting the weight of your body on one leg which by itself is weight bearing. And no – it is not weight =mass x gravity, it is force = mass x gravity or the force to "lift you up an incline" is equal to the mass times gravity. So "force" is the operable factor. Did you study physics? Going up an inclined plane requires force. The more you weigh the more the force. The higher the incline the more the force. If both weight and incline are increased then the force required is all the more greater. Thanks, Jeff 2 – physics master.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> When you walk up a hill you always have one foot on the ground, part of the > definition of walking. Force and weight are two different things. I stand by > that. Walking up a hill and up stairs are NOT the same thing. I have said the > forces are different based on incline and that you use different muscles but > the weight is the same. weight = mass x gravity. > Debs > When you go up a hill or up a stair you are lifting that weight. This does > not happen on a flat surface. > Try going up 10 flights of stairs and then tell me you did not lift weights. > Regards, > Jeff 2 > > But extra stress is not extra weight. IIRC weight= mass x gravity and your > mass > > is the same and the gravity is the same on an incline and a flat road. > Stress > > is another situation. > > Debs > > > Wow you sound just like my physical therapist after surgery! That’s > > > exactly what they told me and that I had to be careful about to prevent > bone > > > stress fractures until my body got stonger and healed. UM MOM Susan > > > > >> Good point, weight bearing exercise is important or exercise in > > > general. I > > > > >> would start out slowly. Walking and especially walking up and down > > > hills is > > > > >> very good. The hills will add more of the weight bearing aspect to > the > > > > >> activity. > > > > >> Regards, > > > > >> Jeff 2 > > > > >Hills do NOT add ‘more weight bearing’. That would be like saying > that > > > you > > > > >weigh more when walking on hills. Running or jumping increase weight > > > bearing > > > > >because you have to bear your WHOLE weight. When you walk you always > have > > > one > > > > >foot on the ground. Hills add more of an aerobic aspect to the walk > and > > > use > > > > >different muscles but that’s about all. > > > > Nonsense. Your weight is taken on almost straight legs when walking on > > > > the flat. Walking up hill means you have to lever your weight upwards > > > > using knee and gluteus. This extra muscular effort throws extra stress > > > > on the bones concerned. Walking down hill stresses different muscles, > > > > and stresses the bones in a different way. The leverage of weight > > > > bearing muscles puts far more stress on the bones than simple standing > > > > on a nearly straight leg, because of the lever moments. The forces on > > > > the bones don’t simply relate to your weight at all because of these > > > > lever moments, which can exert much larger bending forces in lifting > > > > the weight. > > > > — > > > > School of Artificial Intelligence, Division of Informatics > > > > Edinburgh University, 5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK > > > > [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/daidb/people/homes/cam/ ] DoD #205
When you walk up a hill you always have one foot on the ground, part of the definition of walking. Force and weight are two different things. I stand by that. Walking up a hill and up stairs are NOT the same thing. I have said the forces are different based on incline and that you use different muscles but the weight is the same. weight = mass x gravity. Debs – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > When you go up a hill or up a stair you are lifting that weight. This does > not happen on a flat surface. > Try going up 10 flights of stairs and then tell me you did not lift weights. > Regards, > Jeff 2 > But extra stress is not extra weight. IIRC weight= mass x gravity and your > mass > is the same and the gravity is the same on an incline and a flat road. > Stress > is another situation. > Debs > > Wow you sound just like my physical therapist after surgery! That’s > > exactly what they told me and that I had to be careful about to prevent > bone > > stress fractures until my body got stonger and healed. UM MOM Susan > > > >> Good point, weight bearing exercise is important or exercise in > > general. I > > > >> would start out slowly. Walking and especially walking up and down > > hills is > > > >> very good. The hills will add more of the weight bearing aspect to > the > > > >> activity. > > > >> Regards, > > > >> Jeff 2 > > > >Hills do NOT add ‘more weight bearing’. That would be like saying > that > > you > > > >weigh more when walking on hills. Running or jumping increase weight > > bearing > > > >because you have to bear your WHOLE weight. When you walk you always > have > > one > > > >foot on the ground. Hills add more of an aerobic aspect to the walk > and > > use > > > >different muscles but that’s about all. > > > Nonsense. Your weight is taken on almost straight legs when walking on > > > the flat. Walking up hill means you have to lever your weight upwards > > > using knee and gluteus. This extra muscular effort throws extra stress > > > on the bones concerned. Walking down hill stresses different muscles, > > > and stresses the bones in a different way. The leverage of weight > > > bearing muscles puts far more stress on the bones than simple standing > > > on a nearly straight leg, because of the lever moments. The forces on > > > the bones don’t simply relate to your weight at all because of these > > > lever moments, which can exert much larger bending forces in lifting > > > the weight. > > > — > > > School of Artificial Intelligence, Division of Informatics > > > Edinburgh University, 5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK > > > [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/daidb/people/homes/cam/ ] DoD #205
Chris – good explanation. I used to do a lot of Tai Chi and they have many weight bearing exercises that involve low stances and they also incorporate twisting motions which use all of the leg muscles and affect the bones by exerting the stress from different angles. My old Tai Chi master used to say that Tai Chi makes the bones heavier. This was 20 years ago – way before "science" validated that weight bearing exercise increased bond density. Just another example of how science is rapidlly catching up with what people have known for many (hundreds of) years. :-o Thanks, Jeff 2
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Good point, weight bearing exercise is important or exercise in general. I >> would start out slowly. Walking and especially walking up and down hills is >> very good. The hills will add more of the weight bearing aspect to the >> activity. >> Regards, >> Jeff 2 >Hills do NOT add ‘more weight bearing’. That would be like saying that you >weigh more when walking on hills. Running or jumping increase weight bearing >because you have to bear your WHOLE weight. When you walk you always have one >foot on the ground. Hills add more of an aerobic aspect to the walk and use >different muscles but that’s about all. > Nonsense. Your weight is taken on almost straight legs when walking on > the flat. Walking up hill means you have to lever your weight upwards > using knee and gluteus. This extra muscular effort throws extra stress > on the bones concerned. Walking down hill stresses different muscles, > and stresses the bones in a different way. The leverage of weight > bearing muscles puts far more stress on the bones than simple standing > on a nearly straight leg, because of the lever moments. The forces on > the bones don’t simply relate to your weight at all because of these > lever moments, which can exert much larger bending forces in lifting > the weight. > — > School of Artificial Intelligence, Division of Informatics > Edinburgh University, 5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK > [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/daidb/people/homes/cam/ ] DoD #205
When you go up a hill or up a stair you are lifting that weight. This does not happen on a flat surface. Try going up 10 flights of stairs and then tell me you did not lift weights. Regards, Jeff 2
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> But extra stress is not extra weight. IIRC weight= mass x gravity and your mass > is the same and the gravity is the same on an incline and a flat road. Stress > is another situation. > Debs > Wow you sound just like my physical therapist after surgery! That’s > exactly what they told me and that I had to be careful about to prevent bone > stress fractures until my body got stonger and healed. UM MOM Susan > > >> Good point, weight bearing exercise is important or exercise in > general. I > > >> would start out slowly. Walking and especially walking up and down > hills is > > >> very good. The hills will add more of the weight bearing aspect to the > > >> activity. > > >> Regards, > > >> Jeff 2 > > >Hills do NOT add ‘more weight bearing’. That would be like saying that > you > > >weigh more when walking on hills. Running or jumping increase weight > bearing > > >because you have to bear your WHOLE weight. When you walk you always have > one > > >foot on the ground. Hills add more of an aerobic aspect to the walk and > use > > >different muscles but that’s about all. > > Nonsense. Your weight is taken on almost straight legs when walking on > > the flat. Walking up hill means you have to lever your weight upwards > > using knee and gluteus. This extra muscular effort throws extra stress > > on the bones concerned. Walking down hill stresses different muscles, > > and stresses the bones in a different way. The leverage of weight > > bearing muscles puts far more stress on the bones than simple standing > > on a nearly straight leg, because of the lever moments. The forces on > > the bones don’t simply relate to your weight at all because of these > > lever moments, which can exert much larger bending forces in lifting > > the weight. > > — > > School of Artificial Intelligence, Division of Informatics > > Edinburgh University, 5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK > > [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/daidb/people/homes/cam/ ] DoD #205
Thanks for you suggestions and for the emails. I am taking 10 150 mg capsules of Calcium. I will ask my doctor about fosamax. I didnt know that excercise would help. I guess this will be a good time to start a program. I am really quite out of shape.
Exactly, walking up stairs is like walking up a hill. You use your quads and gluts much more. And walking down uses other muscles. Debs – I thought you lived in Beacon Hill and therefore should know this. Jeff 2
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Good point, weight bearing exercise is important or exercise in general. I >> would start out slowly. Walking and especially walking up and down hills is >> very good. The hills will add more of the weight bearing aspect to the >> activity. >> Regards, >> Jeff 2 >Hills do NOT add ‘more weight bearing’. That would be like saying that you >weigh more when walking on hills. Running or jumping increase weight bearing >because you have to bear your WHOLE weight. When you walk you always have one >foot on the ground. Hills add more of an aerobic aspect to the walk and use >different muscles but that’s about all. > Nonsense. Your weight is taken on almost straight legs when walking on > the flat. Walking up hill means you have to lever your weight upwards > using knee and gluteus. This extra muscular effort throws extra stress > on the bones concerned. Walking down hill stresses different muscles, > and stresses the bones in a different way. The leverage of weight > bearing muscles puts far more stress on the bones than simple standing > on a nearly straight leg, because of the lever moments. The forces on > the bones don’t simply relate to your weight at all because of these > lever moments, which can exert much larger bending forces in lifting > the weight. > — > School of Artificial Intelligence, Division of Informatics > Edinburgh University, 5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK > [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/daidb/people/homes/cam/ ] DoD #205
Wow you sound just like my physical therapist after surgery! That’s exactly what they told me and that I had to be careful about to prevent bone stress fractures until my body got stonger and healed. UM MOM Susan
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Good point, weight bearing exercise is important or exercise in general. I >> would start out slowly. Walking and especially walking up and down hills is >> very good. The hills will add more of the weight bearing aspect to the >> activity. >> Regards, >> Jeff 2 >Hills do NOT add ‘more weight bearing’. That would be like saying that you >weigh more when walking on hills. Running or jumping increase weight bearing >because you have to bear your WHOLE weight. When you walk you always have one >foot on the ground. Hills add more of an aerobic aspect to the walk and use >different muscles but that’s about all. > Nonsense. Your weight is taken on almost straight legs when walking on > the flat. Walking up hill means you have to lever your weight upwards > using knee and gluteus. This extra muscular effort throws extra stress > on the bones concerned. Walking down hill stresses different muscles, > and stresses the bones in a different way. The leverage of weight > bearing muscles puts far more stress on the bones than simple standing > on a nearly straight leg, because of the lever moments. The forces on > the bones don’t simply relate to your weight at all because of these > lever moments, which can exert much larger bending forces in lifting > the weight. > — > School of Artificial Intelligence, Division of Informatics > Edinburgh University, 5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK > [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/daidb/people/homes/cam/ ] DoD #205
But extra stress is not extra weight. IIRC weight= mass x gravity and your mass is the same and the gravity is the same on an incline and a flat road. Stress is another situation. Debs – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Wow you sound just like my physical therapist after surgery! That’s > exactly what they told me and that I had to be careful about to prevent bone > stress fractures until my body got stonger and healed. UM MOM Susan > >> Good point, weight bearing exercise is important or exercise in > general. I > >> would start out slowly. Walking and especially walking up and down > hills is > >> very good. The hills will add more of the weight bearing aspect to the > >> activity. > >> Regards, > >> Jeff 2 > >Hills do NOT add ‘more weight bearing’. That would be like saying that > you > >weigh more when walking on hills. Running or jumping increase weight > bearing > >because you have to bear your WHOLE weight. When you walk you always have > one > >foot on the ground. Hills add more of an aerobic aspect to the walk and > use > >different muscles but that’s about all. > Nonsense. Your weight is taken on almost straight legs when walking on > the flat. Walking up hill means you have to lever your weight upwards > using knee and gluteus. This extra muscular effort throws extra stress > on the bones concerned. Walking down hill stresses different muscles, > and stresses the bones in a different way. The leverage of weight > bearing muscles puts far more stress on the bones than simple standing > on a nearly straight leg, because of the lever moments. The forces on > the bones don’t simply relate to your weight at all because of these > lever moments, which can exert much larger bending forces in lifting > the weight. > — > School of Artificial Intelligence, Division of Informatics > Edinburgh University, 5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK > [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/daidb/people/homes/cam/ ] DoD #205
Good point didn’t look at it this way! oops! :-) UM MOM Susan
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> But extra stress is not extra weight. IIRC weight= mass x gravity and your mass > is the same and the gravity is the same on an incline and a flat road. Stress > is another situation. > Debs > Wow you sound just like my physical therapist after surgery! That’s > exactly what they told me and that I had to be careful about to prevent bone > stress fractures until my body got stonger and healed. UM MOM Susan > > >> Good point, weight bearing exercise is important or exercise in > general. I > > >> would start out slowly. Walking and especially walking up and down > hills is > > >> very good. The hills will add more of the weight bearing aspect to the > > >> activity. > > >> Regards, > > >> Jeff 2 > > >Hills do NOT add ‘more weight bearing’. That would be like saying that > you > > >weigh more when walking on hills. Running or jumping increase weight > bearing > > >because you have to bear your WHOLE weight. When you walk you always have > one > > >foot on the ground. Hills add more of an aerobic aspect to the walk and > use > > >different muscles but that’s about all. > > Nonsense. Your weight is taken on almost straight legs when walking on > > the flat. Walking up hill means you have to lever your weight upwards > > using knee and gluteus. This extra muscular effort throws extra stress > > on the bones concerned. Walking down hill stresses different muscles, > > and stresses the bones in a different way. The leverage of weight > > bearing muscles puts far more stress on the bones than simple standing > > on a nearly straight leg, because of the lever moments. The forces on > > the bones don’t simply relate to your weight at all because of these > > lever moments, which can exert much larger bending forces in lifting > > the weight. > > — > > School of Artificial Intelligence, Division of Informatics > > Edinburgh University, 5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK > > [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/daidb/people/homes/cam/ ] DoD #205
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > >> Good point, weight bearing exercise is important or exercise in > general. I > > >> would start out slowly. Walking and especially walking up and down > hills is > > >> very good. The hills will add more of the weight bearing aspect to the > > >> activity. > > >Hills do NOT add ‘more weight bearing’. That would be like saying that > you > > >weigh more when walking on hills. Running or jumping increase weight > bearing > > >because you have to bear your WHOLE weight. When you walk you always have > one > > >foot on the ground. Hills add more of an aerobic aspect to the walk and > use > > >different muscles but that’s about all. > > Nonsense. Your weight is taken on almost straight legs when walking on > > the flat. Walking up hill means you have to lever your weight upwards > > using knee and gluteus. This extra muscular effort throws extra stress > > on the bones concerned. Walking down hill stresses different muscles, > > and stresses the bones in a different way. The leverage of weight > > bearing muscles puts far more stress on the bones than simple standing > > on a nearly straight leg, because of the lever moments. The forces on > > the bones don’t simply relate to your weight at all because of these > > lever moments, which can exert much larger bending forces in lifting > > the weight. > Wow you sound just like my physical therapist after surgery! That’s > exactly what they told me and that I had to be careful about to prevent bone > stress fractures until my body got stonger and healed. UM MOM Susan >But extra stress is not extra weight. IIRC weight= mass x gravity and your mass >is the same and the gravity is the same on an incline and a flat road. Stress >is another situation.
What we’re talking about is weight-bearing exercise intended to strengthen bones. What matters is the force exerted on the bone. Weight-bearing exercise is just a convenient way of imparting large forces to the bones, and in that context walking up and down hills exerts *much* more stressing force on the bones than walking on the flat. — School of Artificial Intelligence, Division of Informatics Edinburgh University, 5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/daidb/people/homes/cam/ ] DoD #205
>> Good point, weight bearing exercise is important or exercise in general. I > would start out slowly. Walking and especially walking up and down hills is > very good. The hills will add more of the weight bearing aspect to the > activity. > Regards, > Jeff 2 >Hills do NOT add ‘more weight bearing’. That would be like saying that you >weigh more when walking on hills. Running or jumping increase weight bearing >because you have to bear your WHOLE weight. When you walk you always have one >foot on the ground. Hills add more of an aerobic aspect to the walk and use >different muscles but that’s about all.
Nonsense. Your weight is taken on almost straight legs when walking on the flat. Walking up hill means you have to lever your weight upwards using knee and gluteus. This extra muscular effort throws extra stress on the bones concerned. Walking down hill stresses different muscles, and stresses the bones in a different way. The leverage of weight bearing muscles puts far more stress on the bones than simple standing on a nearly straight leg, because of the lever moments. The forces on the bones don’t simply relate to your weight at all because of these lever moments, which can exert much larger bending forces in lifting the weight. — School of Artificial Intelligence, Division of Informatics Edinburgh University, 5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/daidb/people/homes/cam/ ] DoD #205
Good point, weight bearing exercise is important or exercise in general. I would start out slowly. Walking and especially walking up and down hills is very good. The hills will add more of the weight bearing aspect to the activity. Regards, Jeff 2 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My gi called me today to let me know I have osteoporosis from the > prednisone. She told me to start taking calcium. However I have been > taking calcium for months. Is anyone on any medication for this? > Yes, you can take Fosamax,or calcitonin (sp?). Talk to your doctor about > it. If you don’t get a lot of sun you should also take vitamin D. > Wieght bearing exercise is also important. Walking, or jogging, and > light weightlifting are good choices. Talk to the doc. before you start > any heavy weightlifting, or contact sports, you may be at risk for > fractures. Also check out the website: http://www.fore.org/ > for more info. > Chris
Hills do NOT add ‘more weight bearing’. That would be like saying that you weigh more when walking on hills. Running or jumping increase weight bearing because you have to bear your WHOLE weight. When you walk you always have one foot on the ground. Hills add more of an aerobic aspect to the walk and use different muscles but that’s about all. Debs – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Good point, weight bearing exercise is important or exercise in general. I > would start out slowly. Walking and especially walking up and down hills is > very good. The hills will add more of the weight bearing aspect to the > activity. > Regards, > Jeff 2 > > My gi called me today to let me know I have osteoporosis from the > > prednisone. She told me to start taking calcium. However I have been > > taking calcium for months. Is anyone on any medication for this? > Yes, you can take Fosamax,or calcitonin (sp?). Talk to your doctor about > it. If you don’t get a lot of sun you should also take vitamin D. > Wieght bearing exercise is also important. Walking, or jogging, and > light weightlifting are good choices. Talk to the doc. before you start > any heavy weightlifting, or contact sports, you may be at risk for > fractures. Also check out the website: http://www.fore.org/ > for more info. > Chris
My calcium supplement also has D in it…I agree with Jeff..it took me a long time to find a calcium supplement I could tolerate… If you don’t have access to a gym or weights or other such equipment, try using those stretchy bands that you hook on a door frame…they provide good resistance exercise….I have small hand held weights in sizes from 1-5 pounds and there are a lot of exercises you can do with them as well ..small curls, etc. I also have one of those exercise balls…got it while in phys ther after I threw out my back..good for strengthening the abs, which in turn tones the lower back … – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Good points, I agree. You need vitamin D as well to help utilize the >calcium. Calcium is used for energy as well as for helping bone structure. >The process that turns food into energy is called the Krebs Cycle. This >needs calcium in order to function. Check it out on the web if you want to >find out more. >Regards, >Jeff2 > > My gi called me today to let me know I have osteoporosis from the > > prednisone. She told me to start taking calcium. However I have been > > taking calcium for months. Is anyone on any medication for this? > Yes, you can take Fosamax,or calcitonin (sp?). Talk to your doctor about > it. If you don’t get a lot of sun you should also take vitamin D. > Wieght bearing exercise is also important. Walking, or jogging, and > light weightlifting are good choices. Talk to the doc. before you start > any heavy weightlifting, or contact sports, you may be at risk for > fractures. Also check out the website: http://www.fore.org/ > for more info. > Chris
Good points, I agree. You need vitamin D as well to help utilize the calcium. Calcium is used for energy as well as for helping bone structure. The process that turns food into energy is called the Krebs Cycle. This needs calcium in order to function. Check it out on the web if you want to find out more. Regards, Jeff2 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My gi called me today to let me know I have osteoporosis from the > prednisone. She told me to start taking calcium. However I have been > taking calcium for months. Is anyone on any medication for this? > Yes, you can take Fosamax,or calcitonin (sp?). Talk to your doctor about > it. If you don’t get a lot of sun you should also take vitamin D. > Wieght bearing exercise is also important. Walking, or jogging, and > light weightlifting are good choices. Talk to the doc. before you start > any heavy weightlifting, or contact sports, you may be at risk for > fractures. Also check out the website: http://www.fore.org/ > for more info. > Chris
My gi called me today to let me know I have osteoporosis from the prednisone. She told me to start taking calcium. However I have been taking calcium for months. Is anyone on any medication for this?
Yes, I take Fosamax, 1 tab each week along with daily calcium. Fosamax is a prescription medication. Tom
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My gi called me today to let me know I have osteoporosis from the > prednisone. She told me to start taking calcium. However I have been > taking calcium for months. Is anyone on any medication for this?
> My gi called me today to let me know I have osteoporosis from the > prednisone. She told me to start taking calcium. However I have been > taking calcium for months. Is anyone on any medication for this?
Yes, you can take Fosamax,or calcitonin (sp?). Talk to your doctor about it. If you don’t get a lot of sun you should also take vitamin D. Wieght bearing exercise is also important. Walking, or jogging, and light weightlifting are good choices. Talk to the doc. before you start any heavy weightlifting, or contact sports, you may be at risk for fractures. Also check out the website: http://www.fore.org/ for more info. Chris
Depends what type of calcium you are taking. Calcium is very hard to absorb unless taken in the right combination with other nutrients. You need to have the proper balance of calcium and magnesium. I take a product called Calcium +. This has the proper balance of nutrients so that you can absorb the calcium. This product is by Rainbow Light. Check out your local health food store. Pred is definitely known to deplete calcium. I’m surprised that your doctor did not tell you this from the start. It is listed on the label even. Good luck and let me know if you need more information. Regards, Jeff 2
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My gi called me today to let me know I have osteoporosis from the > prednisone. She told me to start taking calcium. However I have been > taking calcium for months. Is anyone on any medication for this?
Are you still recommeding Ca for your patients. There is a test that checks the intracellular Ca and Mg..IntraCelluar Diagnostics in Foster City, CA. When we check our patients there is usually far too much calcium and too low magnesium. I certainly agree with the other supplements.
1. Predisposing factors a. Diets high in refined carbohydrated and hydrogenated fats and oils b. Excessive use of alcohol and/or tobacco c. Obesity d. Genetic predisposition (small, thin boned females) e. Excessive use of aluminum containing antacids f. Primary calcium, magnesium, Vitamin K or manganese insufficiency or insufficiency due to hypochlorhydria (low stomach acid) g. Endocrine dysfunction (thyroid, parathyroid) h. Lack of exercise 2. Dietary suggestions a. Eliminate all refined carbohydrates and tobacco b. Limit alcohol, processed foods and caffeine containing foods such as coffee, tea, cola and chocolate c. Eliminate all hydrogenated fats and oils. Increse raw and fresh oils, especially Extra Virgin Olive Oil d. Increse raw foods and quality protein e. Exercise moderately and increase as stamina increases do not become fatigued f. Drink at least 8 full glasses of pure water a day, no chlorine or fluoride Supplemental Support Vitamin C, Boron, Silica, Calcium Magnesium . Contact me for others
SUGGEST YOU GET OFF OF "ALL" DAIRY PRODUCTS YOU GET "INORGANIC CALCIUM VEGETABLES HAVE SUFFICIENT AND ORGANIC FORMS OF CALCIUM WHICH THE BODY USES GOOD LUCK
> SUGGEST YOU GET OFF OF "ALL" DAIRY PRODUCTS YOU GET "INORGANIC CALCIUM > VEGETABLES HAVE SUFFICIENT AND ORGANIC FORMS OF CALCIUM WHICH THE BODY > USES GOOD LUCK
Good luck trying to get the RDA for calcium through consumption of vegetables alone. There’s about 28mg of calcium in a half cup of spinach (one of the better vegetable sources of calcium). For a woman to get 1000 mg of calcium, she would have to eat 36 servings of spinach each day. Of course there’s brocolli with 21mg of calcium in a half cup serving which would require 48 servings. Now consider that only 9% of the US population consumes 5 or more servings of fruit and vegetables each day. For those interested… Suggested "Optimal Clacium Intake" (OCI) from the National Institutes of Health (NIH) Consensus Development Conference on Optimal Calcium Intake, held June 6-8, 1994, in Washington, D.C., OCI from the NIH conference / OCI from current RDA Children Birth-6 mos. 400 mg. / 400 mg. 6 mos.-1 year 600 mg. / 600 mg. 1-10 years 800 mg. / 800 mg. Teenagers 1,200-1,500 mg. / 1,200 mg. Women 25-50 years 1000 mg. / 800 mg. over 50 w/estrogen 1000 mg. / 800 mg. Over 50 w/o estrogen 1,500 mg. / 800 mg. Pregnant & nursing Additional 400 mg. / 1,200 mg. Men 25-50 years 800 mg. / 800 mg. 51-65 years 1,000 mg. / 800 mg. over 65 years 1,500 mg. / 800 mg. Jeff Johnson, MS P.S. – STOP SHOUTING!
Go to; http://www.highfiber.com/~laser This is the site of Dr Van Wormer. I work with him through the hospital. I do not work for him directly, so this is in no way advertising his practice. The site actually has to do with his other specialty, but he is a good resource for info on Fosamax because the company sposored a program he gave on Osteoporosis, he has implemented a comprehensive program to treat osteoporosis in our very small community which includes bone density studies per CAT scan. I did go to the program he presented last month on Osteoporosis and the newest drug regimes for the treatment of it. Fosamax is one of the most current and exciting drug used but is the only one which actually increase bone density. I learned that there is an ideal time for women to start taking Fosomax based on their risk factors and age proximal to menopause in order to prevent the inevitable decrease in bone density. This time last year we RNs started seeing this medicine on patients medications lists and knew nothing about it, it wasn’t even in the PDR then. This year it is prescribed more.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Tyndall) writes: >Can Topical Progesterone Eliminate Osteoporosis? >** >by E.W. McDonagh, D.O. >* >The Estrogen Myth >** >For more than 50 years, medicine has believed that lack of estrogen >was the primary cause of osteoporosis. Even today, medical students >are taught that the proper treament is estrogen replacement therapy. >Estrogen does, in fact inhibit the osteoblast cells that function to >resorb bone and as a result can slow the rate of bone loss. But >estrogen alone cannot rebuild bone. Progesterone rebuilds bone by >stimulating the osteoblast cells that re-mineralize and restore bone >mass. Transdermal progesterone does this with virtually no side >effects.
Please note, everybody, that this statement is being promulgated with absolutely no reference. I personally think it is boloney. However, always willing to learn, I’d be glad to review any published peer reviewed clinical trial in human beings which suggests that what is said above is so. Not a letter to some journal claiming something– I want to see a fully documented human trial. >Use of estrogen without the balance of progesterone is fraught with >side effects: hypertension is one example. Also, salt and water >retension, increase in blood clotting, promotion of fat synthesis, >hypothyroidism, painful breasts, fibrocystic breast disease, increased >risk of gallbladder disease and gallstones, liver dysfunction, >increased risk of endometrial cancer of the uterus, pituitary >prolactinoma tumor and probably breast cancer are additional >undesirable effect (Genant et al., Western Journal of Medicine, Aug. >1983; Gambrell et al., Medical Times, Sept. 1989).
The above is pretty silly, in that many of the effects mentioned (water retension, nipple tenderness) are side effects of progesterone as well. Come on, folks– does the premenstrual syndrome occur in the part of cycle when progesterone is low, or the part when it is high? >Progesterone in appropriate doses to balance estrogen effects, >prevents proliferative endometrium from becoming hyperplastic or >developing carcinoma (Padwick et al., New England Journal of Medicine, >1986). Progesterone also acts with estrogen on breast tissue. Breast >cancer may arise if normal or high amounts of estrogen are present >without cyclic progesterone — a situation that occurs with chronic >anovulation in women with regular cycles. It has been suggested that >progesterone treatment can prevent breast malignancy in >estrogen-treated women (Cowan et al., American Journal of Epidemia, >1981; Gambrell et al., Obstetrics and Gynecology, 1983).
It’s been suggested, and is an interesting hypothesis. What direct evidence is there for it? None. >Topical Natural Progesterone >Many undesirable side effects can occur with the use of test tube >designed progestins or progestenogens prescribed by many doctors.
Suggesting that they don’t occur with natural progesterone. Wrong. As a long time prescriber of micronized progesterone capsules, I can tell you that they do. If they don’t with progesterone CREMES, it is only because the DOSE is lower. It has nothing to do with the agent (the fact that it is natural vs artificial). In >addition, they are not as effective as natural progesterone which is >made by the body or made by plants.
Progesterone is never made by plants. This is more bull. More than five thousand plants can >produce progesterone. They are well accepted by the human body.
More bull. Unreferenced bull. >Probably the most workable and effective from the standpoint of >accuracy of dosage, and ease of usage is liquid progesterone derived >from wild yam.
Triple bull. There is no progesterone in wild yam. There is no evidence that the human body can convert the diosgenin in yam to any hormone whatsoever. Period. >E.W. McDonagh obtained his degree from Kansas City College of >Osteopathic Medicine in 1961. He has a family practice incorporating >the treatment of all common afflictions by combining conventional >treatment with preventive modalties using vitamins, trace minerals, >chelation, etc. In 1984 he was named Doctor of the Year by the >Townsend Letter for Doctors.
And with that, you can see why I think what I think of the Townsend Letter for Doctors. Steve Harris, M.D.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> I have just been diagonosed as having rather severe osteoporosis. I am 45 >> years old, and am not yet reached menepause. I am looking for >> alternatives to hormone therapy to help replace bone density mass. Has >> anyone heard of Fosamax and how to get it? >> Thanks. >> Holly >you should read a book by alan gaby ‘preventing and reversing >osteoporosis. >richard
Hi Holly Some relevant information to read. Can Topical Progesterone Eliminate Osteoporosis? ** by E.W. McDonagh, D.O. ** Osteoporosis is a progressive loss of mone mass with demineralization and a proclivity of the bones to fracture, The disease accelerates with menopause. Each year it is responsible for more that 1.3 million fractures and 40,000 deaths, usually within six months of their fractures. Fifty percent of all people who experience hip fractures due to osteoporosis never regain the ability to walk independently. ** The patient stereotype familiar to medical students, as well as practicing physicians, is of an elderly frail female with stooped-forward curvature of the upper torso, requiring a cane to walk. The sponge-like structure to the vertebral column bones has become weakened and shortened and the patient may have gradually lost several inches in height over the course of the disease. The patient complains of pain, muscle soreness, stiffness, loss of motion, excess fatigue, depression and fitful sleep. Bones of the vertebral column, especially in the mid and low back, hips, knees and ribs are chronically painful and frequently fracture. ** This is after-the-fact osteoporosis, the after-effect of prolonged progesterone hormone deficiency. Progesterone levels routinely fall several years before menopause. The condition is also propagated by inadequate exercise, multiple vitamin and mineral deficiency (not just calcium), deficiency of Vitamins D and K, excessive dietary protein, alcoholism, cigarette smoking, and environmental pollution. ** eliminated and bones rebuilt without cortisone like drugs or prescription pain medication. Functions is reestablished, muscle pains disappear, joint pain is eliminated and the patient can walk, move and sleep soundly once more. ** Osteoporosis in Young Women ** For the prevention-minded physician this is an exciting area capable of great medical effectiveness. Seemlingly separate and disconnected pelvic pathologies have a common connection to osteoporosis: progesterone deficiency. Recent scientific reports have shown that short luteal phases (time between ovulation and mestruation) and especially lack of ovulation in menstrual cycles of normal length may be potential risk factors for excess bone loss in women (Prior et al., New England Journal of Medicine, Nov. 1990). ** Under these circumstances, progesterone is deficient. It is reasonable, therefore, to believe that osteoporosis can develop in young women with these menstrual disorders, and the diagnosis should not be relegated only to post-menopausal women. ** Progesterone Properties **
I might be mistaken but I think Canola contains TFAs (trans fatty acids). Here in Canada, they’ve decreed that any packaged food must show the levels of TFAs and other bad things. TFAs have been identified as a pretty serious health risk. Most margarines contain these things. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
> I might be mistaken but I think Canola contains TFAs (trans fatty acids). > Here in Canada, they’ve decreed that any packaged food must show the levels > of TFAs and other bad things. TFAs have been identified as a pretty serious > health risk. Most margarines contain these things. > Please correct me if I’m wrong.
Hydrogenated oils contain higher levels of TFAs, Canola oil is fine in this regard, it’s unsaturated and unhydrogenated. Also soft margarines such as Becel are unhydrogenated and therefore TFAs are not a big concern.
I forgot who posted on Canola oil, but I got REALcurious about it and reasearched it on the web. So I am just posting this as an FYI follow upon what I learned since I was so alarmed to hear how bad for you canola was purported to be. From what I found from about.com, http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/blcanola.htm?terms=canola+rape+… It is a fallacy that canola oil is especially bad for you (any more so than any oil), according to this source. It states that it is an urban legend not based in fact. If others want to comment on this, I would be curious to hear it, but I would especially want to hear about the source now.
Hello Susan, Try http://www.snopes2.com/toxins/canola.htm for the same rumor with some explanations attached. http://www.tafkac.org/ulz/canola.html has similar information and a few links a the bottom including the one you mentioned. I like snopes web site for checking out rumors since they give you one page with the legend and any explanation. >I forgot who posted on Canola oil, but I got REALcurious about it and >reasearched it on the web. So I am just posting this as an FYI follow upon >what I learned since I was so alarmed to hear how bad for you canola was >purported to be. >From what I found from about.com, >http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/blcanola.htm?terms=canola+rape+… >It is a fallacy that canola oil is especially bad for you (any more so than >any oil), according to this source. It states that it is an urban legend not >based in fact. >If others want to comment on this, I would be curious to hear it, but I >would especially want to hear about the source now.
– Luke The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese
Actually canola oil is an excellent source of omega-3 oils. Other good sources are nut oils such as walnut and avocado, Puritan oil and flaxseed oil. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I forgot who posted on Canola oil, but I got REALcurious about it and >reasearched it on the web. So I am just posting this as an FYI follow upon >what I learned since I was so alarmed to hear how bad for you canola was >purported to be. >From what I found from about.com, >http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/blcanola.htm?terms=canola+rape+… >It is a fallacy that canola oil is especially bad for you (any more so than >any oil), according to this source. It states that it is an urban legend not >based in fact. >If others want to comment on this, I would be curious to hear it, but I >would especially want to hear about the source now.
> Not happy with that lot they continued to tamper with it and > produced a variety that was "roundup" tolerant. Of course "roundup" is also > produced by Monsanto. > wrong again. you are confusing sugar beets with canola. The roundup > resistant beets were for ireland, not canada.
While the post was mostly bullshit, Monsanto has developed round-up ready canola. — Kirk Kolas Ontario Veterinary College Class of 2002 — Curriculum Vitae: http://www.uoguelph.ca/~kkolas/cv.html A Closer Look at Hulda Clark: http://www.uoguelph.ca/~kkolas/
> Hi, > Canola comes from Rapeseed and was genetically engineered by the famous > "Monsanto".
Wrong…It was developed by a university in canada. Not happy with that lot they continued to tamper with it and > produced a variety that was "roundup" tolerant. Of course "roundup" is also > produced by Monsanto.
wrong again. you are confusing sugar beets with canola. The roundup resistant beets were for ireland, not canada. > Well two weeks ago or thereabouts they had to recall 60,000 sacks of the > seed in Canada as it was found that they had produced a rogue protein in the > crop which was most unsuitable for human consumption. Well we all know that > Monsanto being an excellent corporate citizen, did the right thing. > However the seed they produced also was introduced to the environment by > natural things like BEES. Hmmm , hope they recalled all the Bees as well. > So what we have here is a useless product that is now pesticide resistant > growing uncontrollably in the Canadian Wilds.!!!
more pure BS. > Well done Monsanto or is it Pharmacia or Pfizer, hard to tell these days > but they have their representative on the FDA so we should all feel safe.. > Guess what they also got away with it in Australia and got their > representative on the pharmaceutical Board. > Another coup for free enterprise and the current Liberal Government. Not > feeling well? then continue to eat their products and take their medications > all with support of the Government that you elect.
more scare tatics and a political agenda as well. Nice try, but mostly fiction. rich – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Kind regards Rod S, >> It is a meaningless argument that canola oil comes from a genetically >> engineered plant. None of the proteins or DNA is present in the oil, >> hence no problem. > I ggree with this point, but that’s not all there is to it. > What is being sold as "Canola oil" is actually Rapeseed oil, whether > GM or not. Rapeseed has been known to be less than wholesome. > — > -john > "The time to repair the roof is when the sun is shining" > - JFK > — > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
LOL! Good one! :-) apparently write: >rapeseed oil comes from rapeseed. Corn oil comes from corn. Soybean oil comes >from soybeans. Canola oil comes from Canada.
– -john
Hi, Canola comes from Rapeseed and was genetically engineered by the famous "Monsanto". Not happy with that lot they continued to tamper with it and produced a variety that was "roundup" tolerant. Of course "roundup" is also produced by Monsanto. Well two weeks ago or thereabouts they had to recall 60,000 sacks of the seed in Canada as it was found that they had produced a rogue protein in the crop which was most unsuitable for human consumption. Well we all know that Monsanto being an excellent corporate citizen, did the right thing. However the seed they produced also was introduced to the environment by natural things like BEES. Hmmm , hope they recalled all the Bees as well. So what we have here is a useless product that is now pesticide resistant growing uncontrollably in the Canadian Wilds.!!! Well done Monsanto or is it Pharmacia or Pfizer, hard to tell these days but they have their representative on the FDA so we should all feel safe.. Guess what they also got away with it in Australia and got their representative on the pharmaceutical Board. Another coup for free enterprise and the current Liberal Government. Not feeling well? then continue to eat their products and take their medications all with support of the Government that you elect. Kind regards Rod S,
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->It is a meaningless argument that canola oil comes from a genetically >engineered plant. None of the proteins or DNA is present in the oil, >hence no problem. > I ggree with this point, but that’s not all there is to it. > What is being sold as "Canola oil" is actually Rapeseed oil, whether > GM or not. Rapeseed has been known to be less than wholesome. > — > -john > "The time to repair the roof is when the sun is shining" > - JFK
— Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>Canola seed is not rapeseed.
Oh, yeah? http://www.ag.ohio-state.edu/~ohioline/b472/canola.html >Oil from rapeseed is poisonous.
I certainly is. >Oil from canola seed is not. There is no such thing as canola seed.
"Canola" is genetically modified rape. — -john "Always listen to experts. They’ll tell you what can’t be done and why. Then do it." - Robert Heinlein
>It is a meaningless argument that canola oil comes from a genetically >engineered plant. None of the proteins or DNA is present in the oil, >hence no problem.
I ggree with this point, but that’s not all there is to it. What is being sold as "Canola oil" is actually Rapeseed oil, whether GM or not. Rapeseed has been known to be less than wholesome. — -john "The time to repair the roof is when the sun is shining" - JFK
>There is no such thing as a canola. Canola oil is rapeseed oil,
IMHO, the reason it was renamed, was to lessen it’s potential for confusion with grapeseed oil. But then again, I am merely speculating … :-O — -john
Canola seed is not rapeseed. Oil from rapeseed is poisonous. Oil from canola seed is not. rich – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> There is no such thing as a canola. Canola oil is rapeseed oil, > IMHO, the reason it was renamed, was to lessen it’s potential for > confusion with grapeseed oil. > But then again, I am merely speculating … :-O
> > FYI: Canola Oil. I hope none of you are using this oil, it is deadly! > Here is the truth. The original posting is urban legend.
Thanks, Rich, for taking the time to post the Real Story on Canola oil. It IS amazing how such nonsense continues to spread, like an evil virus, thanks to the Internet. Yeh! Let’s give those Canadians some credit! Beside, rapeseed oil just doesn’t have "sales appeal". Somewhat off-topic (but I think this one is done, eh?)—–anyone know the history of how someone figured out that if one takes the fruit of the coffee tree, dries and roasts it, grinds it up and pours very hot water over it, we get the most popular beverage (and, arguably, drug) in the world? –Larry — Larry Bickford, OD Doctor of Optometry, Family Practice Eye Health and Vision Care The EyeCare Connection http://www.EyeCareContacts.com Please note: Addresses are munged using the .invalid protocol to reduce spam. Help fight spam! Report spam to SpamCop http://www.spamcop.net
> FYI: Canola Oil. I hope none of you are using this oil, it is deadly!
Here is the truth. The original posting is urban legend. Peanut oil comes from peanuts; olive oil comes from olives. But what on Earth is a canola? There is no such thing as a canola. Canola oil is rapeseed oil, pressed or extracted from the seeds of the rape plant (from the Latin rapa, meaning turnip) Brassica rapa or B. campestris, close relatives of mustard, kale, cabbage and broccoli. Mustard? Yes, but there is no truth to the hysterical claim made in the e-mail rave that rapeseed is the source of mustard gas, the flesh-burning chemical weapon used by the Germans in World War I; it is chemically unrelated. The grain of truth behind the whole anti-canola crusade is that historically, rapeseed oil has proven to be toxic because of a high content — between 30 and 60 percent — of erucic acid, a monounsaturated fatty acid. That has never stopped people in Asia and Scandinavia, however, from using it in their cooking for centuries. But while rapeseed oil has many industrial uses, it was not permitted as an edible oil in the U.S. because of its erucic acid content. In 1974, plant breeders at the University of Manitoba in Canada succeeded in developing a genetically modified rape plant whose seed oil contained less than 2 percent of erucic acid. They nationalistically named it canola: can- for "Canadian" plus -ola, for "oil." This euphemism was approved for edible rapeseed oil by the Food and Drug Administration in 1989, provided that the erucic acid content did not exceed 2 percent. Today’s canola oil averages 0.6 percent erucic acid, only 1 percent or 2 percent of the amount in the rapeseed oil of old. It is valued for its fatty acid profile, which is 59 percent monounsaturated, 30 percent polyunsaturated and 7 percent saturated. This compares favorably with Health Champ olive oil’s profile: 74 percent monounsaturated, 8 percent polyunsaturated and 14 percent saturated. Apparently, some people find it hard to understand that if the erucic acid has been bred out of the plant, the acid’s toxicity can no longer be ascribed to the oil. This is not the only case of a dangerous substance having to be removed from a food to make it safe. Before cashew nuts are roasted, for example, they contain a substance that would burn your skin off. And cassava, a staple of the Central and South American diet, is full of hydrogen cyanide before it is soaked or heated. Shakespeare to the contrary notwithstanding, the sins of the fathers are not to be laid upon the children. http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/style/food/A31594-2001Feb6.html And the next article exposes the legend as well… Origins: What we have here is a bit of truth about a product’s family history worked into a hysterical screed against the product itself. There is no earthly reason to give any credence to this rumor — Canola oil is not the horrifying product this widely-disseminated e-mail makes it out to be, nor has the FDA turned loose on the American public a health scourge worthy of being named one of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. An appreciation of what this scare is based upon begins with a better understanding of what canola oil and how it came into being. The rape plant (Brassica napus) is a member of the mustard family, as claimed in the e-mail. However, before associations between rape and mustard gas set in too strongly, it should be noted turnip, cabbage, watercress, horseradish, and radish are also members of this family of plants. Rapeseed oil has been used for cooking for centuries in Europe, India, China, and Japan. As modern science is finding out, its previous use wasn’t necessarily a guarantee of safety. Cooking at high temperatures with unrefined rapeseed oil now appears to be related to an increased risk of lung cancer because at high temperatures cooking oil gives off chemicals capable of causing mutations in cells. Unrefined rapeseed oil is particularly notable for this, but other oils also have this association. Those intent upon doing large amounts of wok cooking with any sort of cooking oil should therefore lower their frying temperature from the 240
>Thanks Rose. How are you doing? I hink I read somewhere that you broke your >arm. I thought you had given up break dancing?!!! <BEG> >Susanne
LOL It seems that I did not. Though I would much rather be dancing a rousing good polka. (EG) Rose
Definitely a yes on the ice cream and bananas…… <G> Sorry to hear about the diagnosis, but as you say, now they can start to treat it. That is always a relief. Hope you feel lots better soon. Pati, in Phx – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I went back to the doctor’s today to find out the results of all my tests. > The result was that the good news is bad news. What that means is that I > definately have sero-positive rheumatoid arthritis. The x-rays also showed > substantial RA damage to almost all joints in my hands and that > oesteoarthritis has settled in as well. > My right TMJ has significant damage and can’t be repaired, again from the > RA. The RA also has attached my salivary and thyroid glands. I had very low > thyroid and am to start medication for it immediately. > Last was that I have a urinary tract infection. > The doctor shook his head and said he couldn’t imagine what I have gone > through in the past 9 months. It was nice to have someone who would listen > and empathize with what it has been like. > He faxed off a request for an appointment with a rheumologist in Edmonton so > now I will wait for her call. Meanwhile I am to stay on the Daypro and > plaquenol. > I know this is devastating news but I feel so relieved. Now I have hope of > feeling better. I can hardly wait to start the synthroid and feel some > energy. No wonder I was having a hard time finding energy to even get > dressed. I wish I had the guts to stand outside the jerk’s office with a > huge sign for what he has put me through. > This was the first day of my new diet but I think after all this, I need > lots of chocolate ice cream with sliced bananas. And lots of chocolate fudge > sauce! Don’t you guys? > Susanne
orthodontist—i believe is the word you were looking for, duckie. kate (lucky me, the brain fog cycles in and out occassionally. but don’t ask the same question ten minutes from now, cuz i can’t guarantee what i might come out with.)
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Susanne — give this web site a read. I don’t have a mouth guard like this > one, but I do have a mouth guard which I wear at night and even during the > day if I am getting a headache. You need to see a good but conservative > doctor/dentist. Surgery should be the absolute last thing on your list for > this. My oral surgen says that the odds of the disease eating thru the > harvested bone replacement is very high with RA patients so not worth the > risk. He has other ideas but personally I think they are just not worth the > effort. The man who made my mouth guard has gotten me eating with 4 teeth > top and bottom — when I started I had one top and bottom. I think I can > live with those 8 teeth eating. This man is a — what do they call the > guy who puts braces on people…. He got interested in TMJ adults when some > of his teenagers grew up and began having trouble. > Duckie > Organization: Shaw Residential Internet > Newsgroups: > alt.med.fibromyalgia,alt.support.arthritis,rec.crafts.textiles.quilting > you are so right Mare. You’ll have to write and let me know what you do for > your TMJ pain. Especially when you lie down at night. > Susanne
I’m glad to hear you finally got your diagnosis. At least with that they can begin the proper treatment. As for the stomach ache – take two Gaviscon tablets, and walk about a bit to shift the trapped wind caused by over-indulgence! NO criticism from me – you need a bit of a celebration! Kate XXXXXX – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I went back to the doctor’s today to find out the results of all my tests. > The result was that the good news is bad news. What that means is that I > definately have sero-positive rheumatoid arthritis. The x-rays also showed > substantial RA damage to almost all joints in my hands and that > oesteoarthritis has settled in as well. > My right TMJ has significant damage and can’t be repaired, again from the > RA. The RA also has attached my salivary and thyroid glands. I had very low > thyroid and am to start medication for it immediately. > Last was that I have a urinary tract infection. > The doctor shook his head and said he couldn’t imagine what I have gone > through in the past 9 months. It was nice to have someone who would listen > and empathize with what it has been like. > He faxed off a request for an appointment with a rheumologist in Edmonton so > now I will wait for her call. Meanwhile I am to stay on the Daypro and > plaquenol. > I know this is devastating news but I feel so relieved. Now I have hope of > feeling better. I can hardly wait to start the synthroid and feel some > energy. No wonder I was having a hard time finding energy to even get > dressed. I wish I had the guts to stand outside the jerk’s office with a > huge sign for what he has put me through. > This was the first day of my new diet but I think after all this, I need > lots of chocolate ice cream with sliced bananas. And lots of chocolate fudge > sauce! Don’t you guys? > Susanne
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I went back to the doctor’s today to find out the results of all my tests. >The result was that the good news is bad news. What that means is that I >definately have sero-positive rheumatoid arthritis. The x-rays also showed >substantial RA damage to almost all joints in my hands and that >oesteoarthritis has settled in as well. >My right TMJ has significant damage and can’t be repaired, again from the >RA. The RA also has attached my salivary and thyroid glands. I had very low >thyroid and am to start medication for it immediately. >Last was that I have a urinary tract infection. >The doctor shook his head and said he couldn’t imagine what I have gone >through in the past 9 months. It was nice to have someone who would listen >and empathize with what it has been like. >He faxed off a request for an appointment with a rheumologist in Edmonton so >now I will wait for her call. Meanwhile I am to stay on the Daypro and >plaquenol. >I know this is devastating news but I feel so relieved. Now I have hope of >feeling better. I can hardly wait to start the synthroid and feel some >energy. No wonder I was having a hard time finding energy to even get >dressed. I wish I had the guts to stand outside the jerk’s office with a >huge sign for what he has put me through. >This was the first day of my new diet but I think after all this, I need >lots of chocolate ice cream with sliced bananas. And lots of chocolate fudge >sauce! Don’t you guys? >Susanne
Susanne, I can’t imagine, either, what you’ve been going through all this time! I really hope that the medication you’ll be taking from now on gives you relief and that you can once again begin to enjoy life. {{{HUGS}}} — Sandy http://home.earthlink.net/~s_foster
Thanks Sandy. Susanne
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I went back to the doctor’s today to find out the results of all my tests. >The result was that the good news is bad news. What that means is that I >definately have sero-positive rheumatoid arthritis. The x-rays also showed >substantial RA damage to almost all joints in my hands and that >oesteoarthritis has settled in as well. >My right TMJ has significant damage and can’t be repaired, again from the >RA. The RA also has attached my salivary and thyroid glands. I had very low >thyroid and am to start medication for it immediately. >Last was that I have a urinary tract infection. >The doctor shook his head and said he couldn’t imagine what I have gone >through in the past 9 months. It was nice to have someone who would listen >and empathize with what it has been like. >He faxed off a request for an appointment with a rheumologist in Edmonton so >now I will wait for her call. Meanwhile I am to stay on the Daypro and >plaquenol. >I know this is devastating news but I feel so relieved. Now I have hope of >feeling better. I can hardly wait to start the synthroid and feel some >energy. No wonder I was having a hard time finding energy to even get >dressed. I wish I had the guts to stand outside the jerk’s office with a >huge sign for what he has put me through. >This was the first day of my new diet but I think after all this, I need >lots of chocolate ice cream with sliced bananas. And lots of chocolate fudge >sauce! Don’t you guys? >Susanne > Susanne, I can’t imagine, either, what you’ve been going through all > this time! I really hope that the medication you’ll be taking from now > on gives you relief and that you can once again begin to enjoy life. > {{{HUGS}}} > — > Sandy > http://home.earthlink.net/~s_foster
Did you forget to include the web site, Caroline? Susanne
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Susanne — give this web site a read. I don’t have a mouth guard like this > one, but I do have a mouth guard which I wear at night and even during the > day if I am getting a headache. You need to see a good but conservative > doctor/dentist. Surgery should be the absolute last thing on your list for > this. My oral surgen says that the odds of the disease eating thru the > harvested bone replacement is very high with RA patients so not worth the > risk. He has other ideas but personally I think they are just not worth the > effort. The man who made my mouth guard has gotten me eating with 4 teeth > top and bottom — when I started I had one top and bottom. I think I can > live with those 8 teeth eating. This man is a — what do they call the > guy who puts braces on people…. He got interested in TMJ adults when some > of his teenagers grew up and began having trouble. > Duckie > Organization: Shaw Residential Internet > Newsgroups: > alt.med.fibromyalgia,alt.support.arthritis,rec.crafts.textiles.quilting > you are so right Mare. You’ll have to write and let me know what you do for > your TMJ pain. Especially when you lie down at night. > Susanne
Thanks Rose. How are you doing? I hink I read somewhere that you broke your arm. I thought you had given up break dancing?!!! <BEG> Susanne
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I went back to the doctor’s today to find out the results of all my tests. >The result was that the good news is bad news. > Sorry to hear that you have RA, but glad to hear you have a diagnosis > so that treatment can begin. This is not a club that anyone would want > to be in, but it is the best time to date to be here. What I mean is > there are more treatment optiond and drs are generally using mre > aggressive treatments early. Hopefully you can start treratment and > get this beast under control. > Rose
Susanne — give this web site a read. I don’t have a mouth guard like this one, but I do have a mouth guard which I wear at night and even during the day if I am getting a headache. You need to see a good but conservative doctor/dentist. Surgery should be the absolute last thing on your list for this. My oral surgen says that the odds of the disease eating thru the harvested bone replacement is very high with RA patients so not worth the risk. He has other ideas but personally I think they are just not worth the effort. The man who made my mouth guard has gotten me eating with 4 teeth top and bottom — when I started I had one top and bottom. I think I can live with those 8 teeth eating. This man is a — what do they call the guy who puts braces on people…. He got interested in TMJ adults when some of his teenagers grew up and began having trouble. Duckie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Organization: Shaw Residential Internet > Newsgroups: > alt.med.fibromyalgia,alt.support.arthritis,rec.crafts.textiles.quilting > you are so right Mare. You’ll have to write and let me know what you do for > your TMJ pain. Especially when you lie down at night. > Susanne
Thanks Duckie. I almost hugged the poor man, I was so happy! I held my composure though and just shook his hand! LOL Susanne
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Can you see me smiling from here? Nothing like a diagnosis to make one > actually feel better. Mine took 15 years — I think I have less wrong even > now, so you ‘win’. Huge hugs and an official welcome to the sandbox. BTW, > your PCP sounds like a keeper. > Duckie > Organization: Shaw Residential Internet > Newsgroups: > alt.med.fibromyalgia,alt.support.arthritis,rec.crafts.textiles.quilting > I went back to the doctor’s today to find out the results of all my tests. > The result was that the good news is bad news. What that means is that I > definately have sero-positive rheumatoid arthritis. The x-rays also showed > substantial RA damage to almost all joints in my hands and that > oesteoarthritis has settled in as well. > My right TMJ has significant damage and can’t be repaired, again from the > RA. The RA also has attached my salivary and thyroid glands. I had very low > thyroid and am to start medication for it immediately. > Last was that I have a urinary tract infection. > The doctor shook his head and said he couldn’t imagine what I have gone > through in the past 9 months. It was nice to have someone who would listen > and empathize with what it has been like. > He faxed off a request for an appointment with a rheumologist in Edmonton so > now I will wait for her call. Meanwhile I am to stay on the Daypro and > plaquenol. > I know this is devastating news but I feel so relieved. Now I have hope of > feeling better. I can hardly wait to start the synthroid and feel some > energy. No wonder I was having a hard time finding energy to even get > dressed. I wish I had the guts to stand outside the jerk’s office with a > huge sign for what he has put me through. > This was the first day of my new diet but I think after all this, I need > lots of chocolate ice cream with sliced bananas. And lots of chocolate fudge > sauce! Don’t you guys? > Susanne
Thanks Martha. I will. Susanne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Good news and bad news is certainly right isn’t it. For myself, I always > prefer the known to the unknown, at least you know now what you are dealing > with. Best wishes to you and let us know how you are doing. > Martha in IN > I went back to the doctor’s today to find out the results of all my tests. > The result was that the good news is bad news. What that means is that I > definately have sero-positive rheumatoid arthritis. The x-rays also showed > substantial RA damage to almost all joints in my hands and that > oesteoarthritis has settled in as well. > My right TMJ has significant damage and can’t be repaired, again from the > RA. The RA also has attached my salivary and thyroid glands. I had very > low > thyroid and am to start medication for it immediately. > Last was that I have a urinary tract infection. > The doctor shook his head and said he couldn’t imagine what I have gone > through in the past 9 months. It was nice to have someone who would listen > and empathize with what it has been like. > He faxed off a request for an appointment with a rheumologist in Edmonton > so > now I will wait for her call. Meanwhile I am to stay on the Daypro and > plaquenol. > I know this is devastating news but I feel so relieved. Now I have hope of > feeling better. I can hardly wait to start the synthroid and feel some > energy. No wonder I was having a hard time finding energy to even get > dressed. I wish I had the guts to stand outside the jerk’s office with a > huge sign for what he has put me through. > This was the first day of my new diet but I think after all this, I need > lots of chocolate ice cream with sliced bananas. And lots of chocolate > fudge > sauce! Don’t you guys? > Susanne
you are so right Mare. You’ll have to write and let me know what you do for your TMJ pain. Especially when you lie down at night. Susanne
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Glad you finally got some answers, Susanne, and you know what you’re dealing > with. Not knowing is the worst, I find. I have severe OA in my right jaw > (and TMJ) so I can sympathize with you on that one. Hopefully, you’ll get > the right meds now and some relief. Good luck with the new rheumy. Hugs, > Mare in Ottawa > I went back to the doctor’s today to find out the results of all my tests. > The result was that the good news is bad news. What that means is that I > definately have sero-positive rheumatoid arthritis. The x-rays also showed > substantial RA damage to almost all joints in my hands and that > oesteoarthritis has settled in as well. > My right TMJ has significant damage and can’t be repaired, again from the > RA. The RA also has attached my salivary and thyroid glands. I had very > low > thyroid and am to start medication for it immediately. > Last was that I have a urinary tract infection. > The doctor shook his head and said he couldn’t imagine what I have gone > through in the past 9 months. It was nice to have someone who would listen > and empathize with what it has been like. > He faxed off a request for an appointment with a rheumologist in Edmonton > so > now I will wait for her call. Meanwhile I am to stay on the Daypro and > plaquenol. > I know this is devastating news but I feel so relieved. Now I have hope of > feeling better. I can hardly wait to start the synthroid and feel some > energy. No wonder I was having a hard time finding energy to even get > dressed. I wish I had the guts to stand outside the jerk’s office with a > huge sign for what he has put me through. > This was the first day of my new diet but I think after all this, I need > lots of chocolate ice cream with sliced bananas. And lots of chocolate > fudge > sauce! Don’t you guys? > Susanne
>I went back to the doctor’s today to find out the results of all my tests. >The result was that the good news is bad news.
Sorry to hear that you have RA, but glad to hear you have a diagnosis so that treatment can begin. This is not a club that anyone would want to be in, but it is the best time to date to be here. What I mean is there are more treatment optiond and drs are generally using mre aggressive treatments early. Hopefully you can start treratment and get this beast under control. Rose
@shaw.ca says… > He faxed off a request for an appointment with a rheumologist in Edmonton so > now I will wait for her call. Meanwhile I am to stay on the Daypro and > plaquenol.
Geez I wish they would get you on something stronger than Plaquenil it may takes months before you see an RD. Any chance for mtx or Arava? Was the other Dr an RD? Read what Dr Doc said in the post about RF converting from high to normal "the clinical picture is the most important thing", my Dr has made similar comments. Hoping you get into an RD fast!!! — MZ — Visit my website: http://www.mzuschlag.com
Oh Kate. Don’t mention the CIC to me any more. My stomach is killing me more than the arthritis is tonight! LOL Thanks for your support. Susanne
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> boy, you’ve been through so much just to get here. i’m glad you finally > have a dx, though i’m sorry that it is RA and OA. it is a relief to know > what we are dealing with. i’d say the whole gimp patrol should help you > make and carry the sign. > but first, the ice cream! all warm gooey fudginess, creamy smooth and > chocolatey and yummy sweet bananas blending just perfectly with its > fragrance rising gently to meet your nose. ouuuu— just waiting for you. > kate > I went back to the doctor’s today to find out the results of all my tests. > The result was that the good news is bad news. What that means is that I > definately have sero-positive rheumatoid arthritis. The x-rays also showed > substantial RA damage to almost all joints in my hands and that > oesteoarthritis has settled in as well. > My right TMJ has significant damage and can’t be repaired, again from the > RA. The RA also has attached my salivary and thyroid glands. I had very > low > thyroid and am to start medication for it immediately. > Last was that I have a urinary tract infection. > The doctor shook his head and said he couldn’t imagine what I have gone > through in the past 9 months. It was nice to have someone who would listen > and empathize with what it has been like. > He faxed off a request for an appointment with a rheumologist in Edmonton > so > now I will wait for her call. Meanwhile I am to stay on the Daypro and > plaquenol. > I know this is devastating news but I feel so relieved. Now I have hope of > feeling better. I can hardly wait to start the synthroid and feel some > energy. No wonder I was having a hard time finding energy to even get > dressed. I wish I had the guts to stand outside the jerk’s office with a > huge sign for what he has put me through. > This was the first day of my new diet but I think after all this, I need > lots of chocolate ice cream with sliced bananas. And lots of chocolate > fudge > sauce! Don’t you guys? > Susanne
Darn tootin! Susanne
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You have been validated and I know that feels good! > debbie m. > http://www.angelfire.com/ga2/angels1/ > I went back to the doctor’s today to find out the results of all my tests. > The result was that the good news is bad news. What that means is that I > definately have sero-positive rheumatoid arthritis. The x-rays also showed > substantial RA damage to almost all joints in my hands and that > oesteoarthritis has settled in as well. > My right TMJ has significant damage and can’t be repaired, again from the > RA. The RA also has attached my salivary and thyroid glands. I had very > low > thyroid and am to start medication for it immediately. > Last was that I have a urinary tract infection. > The doctor shook his head and said he couldn’t imagine what I have gone > through in the past 9 months. It was nice to have someone who would listen > and empathize with what it has been like. > He faxed off a request for an appointment with a rheumologist in Edmonton > so > now I will wait for her call. Meanwhile I am to stay on the Daypro and > plaquenol. > I know this is devastating news but I feel so relieved. Now I have hope of > feeling better. I can hardly wait to start the synthroid and feel some > energy. No wonder I was having a hard time finding energy to even get > dressed. I wish I had the guts to stand outside the jerk’s office with a > huge sign for what he has put me through. > This was the first day of my new diet but I think after all this, I need > lots of chocolate ice cream with sliced bananas. And lots of chocolate > fudge > sauce! Don’t you guys? > Susanne
I was on MTX for 6 or 7 years until they decided that I didn’t have RA at Christmas. I’m hoping to try one of the newer treatments. I felt like a ticking time bomb on mtx, waiting for cancer to show it’s ugly head. I’ll keep everyone posted on when I get in to see a rheumie. Susanne
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> He faxed off a request for an appointment with a rheumologist in Edmonton so > now I will wait for her call. Meanwhile I am to stay on the Daypro and > plaquenol. > Geez I wish they would get you on something stronger than Plaquenil it may > takes months before you see an RD. Any chance for mtx or Arava? Was the > other Dr an RD? Read what Dr Doc said in the post about RF converting from > high to normal "the clinical picture is the most important thing", my Dr has > made similar comments. Hoping you get into an RD fast!!! — MZ > — > Visit my website: > http://www.mzuschlag.com
Gwen you can have all the rest! I have the worst stomach ache from eating it. Right now the very idea of chocolate ice cream is making me turn green!!! Arrr…. I need a bromozelzer! Susanne
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Susanne, may I join you for the chocolate ice cream? You can have all the > bananas and the fudge sauce; I’ll just take more ice cream. > Glad you did get a diagnosis; now you can know what you’re fighting. > Gwen
Can you see me smiling from here? Nothing like a diagnosis to make one actually feel better. Mine took 15 years — I think I have less wrong even now, so you ‘win’. Huge hugs and an official welcome to the sandbox. BTW, your PCP sounds like a keeper. Duckie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Organization: Shaw Residential Internet > Newsgroups: > alt.med.fibromyalgia,alt.support.arthritis,rec.crafts.textiles.quilting > I went back to the doctor’s today to find out the results of all my tests. > The result was that the good news is bad news. What that means is that I > definately have sero-positive rheumatoid arthritis. The x-rays also showed > substantial RA damage to almost all joints in my hands and that > oesteoarthritis has settled in as well. > My right TMJ has significant damage and can’t be repaired, again from the > RA. The RA also has attached my salivary and thyroid glands. I had very low > thyroid and am to start medication for it immediately. > Last was that I have a urinary tract infection. > The doctor shook his head and said he couldn’t imagine what I have gone > through in the past 9 months. It was nice to have someone who would listen > and empathize with what it has been like. > He faxed off a request for an appointment with a rheumologist in Edmonton so > now I will wait for her call. Meanwhile I am to stay on the Daypro and > plaquenol. > I know this is devastating news but I feel so relieved. Now I have hope of > feeling better. I can hardly wait to start the synthroid and feel some > energy. No wonder I was having a hard time finding energy to even get > dressed. I wish I had the guts to stand outside the jerk’s office with a > huge sign for what he has put me through. > This was the first day of my new diet but I think after all this, I need > lots of chocolate ice cream with sliced bananas. And lots of chocolate fudge > sauce! Don’t you guys? > Susanne
boy, you’ve been through so much just to get here. i’m glad you finally have a dx, though i’m sorry that it is RA and OA. it is a relief to know what we are dealing with. i’d say the whole gimp patrol should help you make and carry the sign. but first, the ice cream! all warm gooey fudginess, creamy smooth and chocolatey and yummy sweet bananas blending just perfectly with its fragrance rising gently to meet your nose. ouuuu— just waiting for you. kate
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I went back to the doctor’s today to find out the results of all my tests. > The result was that the good news is bad news. What that means is that I > definately have sero-positive rheumatoid arthritis. The x-rays also showed > substantial RA damage to almost all joints in my hands and that > oesteoarthritis has settled in as well. > My right TMJ has significant damage and can’t be repaired, again from the > RA. The RA also has attached my salivary and thyroid glands. I had very low > thyroid and am to start medication for it immediately. > Last was that I have a urinary tract infection. > The doctor shook his head and said he couldn’t imagine what I have gone > through in the past 9 months. It was nice to have someone who would listen > and empathize with what it has been like. > He faxed off a request for an appointment with a rheumologist in Edmonton so > now I will wait for her call. Meanwhile I am to stay on the Daypro and > plaquenol. > I know this is devastating news but I feel so relieved. Now I have hope of > feeling better. I can hardly wait to start the synthroid and feel some > energy. No wonder I was having a hard time finding energy to even get > dressed. I wish I had the guts to stand outside the jerk’s office with a > huge sign for what he has put me through. > This was the first day of my new diet but I think after all this, I need > lots of chocolate ice cream with sliced bananas. And lots of chocolate fudge > sauce! Don’t you guys? > Susanne
Susanne, may I join you for the chocolate ice cream? You can have all the bananas and the fudge sauce; I’ll just take more ice cream. Glad you did get a diagnosis; now you can know what you’re fighting. Gwen
You have been validated and I know that feels good! debbie m. http://www.angelfire.com/ga2/angels1/
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I went back to the doctor’s today to find out the results of all my tests. > The result was that the good news is bad news. What that means is that I > definately have sero-positive rheumatoid arthritis. The x-rays also showed > substantial RA damage to almost all joints in my hands and that > oesteoarthritis has settled in as well. > My right TMJ has significant damage and can’t be repaired, again from the > RA. The RA also has attached my salivary and thyroid glands. I had very low > thyroid and am to start medication for it immediately. > Last was that I have a urinary tract infection. > The doctor shook his head and said he couldn’t imagine what I have gone > through in the past 9 months. It was nice to have someone who would listen > and empathize with what it has been like. > He faxed off a request for an appointment with a rheumologist in Edmonton so > now I will wait for her call. Meanwhile I am to stay on the Daypro and > plaquenol. > I know this is devastating news but I feel so relieved. Now I have hope of > feeling better. I can hardly wait to start the synthroid and feel some > energy. No wonder I was having a hard time finding energy to even get > dressed. I wish I had the guts to stand outside the jerk’s office with a > huge sign for what he has put me through. > This was the first day of my new diet but I think after all this, I need > lots of chocolate ice cream with sliced bananas. And lots of chocolate fudge > sauce! Don’t you guys? > Susanne
I went back to the doctor’s today to find out the results of all my tests. The result was that the good news is bad news. What that means is that I definately have sero-positive rheumatoid arthritis. The x-rays also showed substantial RA damage to almost all joints in my hands and that oesteoarthritis has settled in as well. My right TMJ has significant damage and can’t be repaired, again from the RA. The RA also has attached my salivary and thyroid glands. I had very low thyroid and am to start medication for it immediately. Last was that I have a urinary tract infection. The doctor shook his head and said he couldn’t imagine what I have gone through in the past 9 months. It was nice to have someone who would listen and empathize with what it has been like. He faxed off a request for an appointment with a rheumologist in Edmonton so now I will wait for her call. Meanwhile I am to stay on the Daypro and plaquenol. I know this is devastating news but I feel so relieved. Now I have hope of feeling better. I can hardly wait to start the synthroid and feel some energy. No wonder I was having a hard time finding energy to even get dressed. I wish I had the guts to stand outside the jerk’s office with a huge sign for what he has put me through. This was the first day of my new diet but I think after all this, I need lots of chocolate ice cream with sliced bananas. And lots of chocolate fudge sauce! Don’t you guys? Susanne
Good news and bad news is certainly right isn’t it. For myself, I always prefer the known to the unknown, at least you know now what you are dealing with. Best wishes to you and let us know how you are doing. Martha in IN
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I went back to the doctor’s today to find out the results of all my tests. > The result was that the good news is bad news. What that means is that I > definately have sero-positive rheumatoid arthritis. The x-rays also showed > substantial RA damage to almost all joints in my hands and that > oesteoarthritis has settled in as well. > My right TMJ has significant damage and can’t be repaired, again from the > RA. The RA also has attached my salivary and thyroid glands. I had very low > thyroid and am to start medication for it immediately. > Last was that I have a urinary tract infection. > The doctor shook his head and said he couldn’t imagine what I have gone > through in the past 9 months. It was nice to have someone who would listen > and empathize with what it has been like. > He faxed off a request for an appointment with a rheumologist in Edmonton so > now I will wait for her call. Meanwhile I am to stay on the Daypro and > plaquenol. > I know this is devastating news but I feel so relieved. Now I have hope of > feeling better. I can hardly wait to start the synthroid and feel some > energy. No wonder I was having a hard time finding energy to even get > dressed. I wish I had the guts to stand outside the jerk’s office with a > huge sign for what he has put me through. > This was the first day of my new diet but I think after all this, I need > lots of chocolate ice cream with sliced bananas. And lots of chocolate fudge > sauce! Don’t you guys? > Susanne
Glad you finally got some answers, Susanne, and you know what you’re dealing with. Not knowing is the worst, I find. I have severe OA in my right jaw (and TMJ) so I can sympathize with you on that one. Hopefully, you’ll get the right meds now and some relief. Good luck with the new rheumy. Hugs, Mare in Ottawa
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I went back to the doctor’s today to find out the results of all my tests. > The result was that the good news is bad news. What that means is that I > definately have sero-positive rheumatoid arthritis. The x-rays also showed > substantial RA damage to almost all joints in my hands and that > oesteoarthritis has settled in as well. > My right TMJ has significant damage and can’t be repaired, again from the > RA. The RA also has attached my salivary and thyroid glands. I had very low > thyroid and am to start medication for it immediately. > Last was that I have a urinary tract infection. > The doctor shook his head and said he couldn’t imagine what I have gone > through in the past 9 months. It was nice to have someone who would listen > and empathize with what it has been like. > He faxed off a request for an appointment with a rheumologist in Edmonton so > now I will wait for her call. Meanwhile I am to stay on the Daypro and > plaquenol. > I know this is devastating news but I feel so relieved. Now I have hope of > feeling better. I can hardly wait to start the synthroid and feel some > energy. No wonder I was having a hard time finding energy to even get > dressed. I wish I had the guts to stand outside the jerk’s office with a > huge sign for what he has put me through. > This was the first day of my new diet but I think after all this, I need > lots of chocolate ice cream with sliced bananas. And lots of chocolate fudge > sauce! Don’t you guys? > Susanne
Phil, doesn’t hyperthyroidism frequently occur with cardiomyopathy also? I seem to recall reading this somewhere. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Thank you for the info. I don’t yet know if he has it, vet is about to run > tests because on his last two visits two weeks apart he had a very fast > heart rate. He is Persian, not Maine Coone and reason i took him to vet > was > because he is rapidly losing weight, down to 8lbs from 10 normally. I am > hoping he doesn’t have it! – but all other tests done to date are > negative. > Helen > What you described could also be hyperthyroidism. Has your vet checked your > cat’s T-4 (hormone) levels? If not, find a new vet. > Hyperthyroidism is a serious and relatively common endocrine disorder > resulting from excess in thyroid hormone in the circulation. Most commonly, > this condition is caused by a functional (hormone producing) enlargement of > the thyroid gland(s) or a hormone producing thyroid tumor. Fortunately, the > more serious thyroid carcinoma rarely produces this condition in cats. In > about 70% of cats, both thyroid glands will be enlarged and/or contain tumor > tissue. The other 30% will have one-sided involvement. As to how or why > these enlargements or tumors appear is uncertain, but this condition has > been seen more frequently in the last two decades. (Carcinogenic in pet > foods could be a possibly) > Because thyroid hormone exerts a profound effect upon the metabolic rate of > all cells in the body, cats with this condition are literally running at > "top speed" all the time, which is ultimately quite detrimental to the > health of the cat. Clinical signs include weight loss, an increased if not > ravenous appetite, vomiting which may be intermittent, increased thirst and > urination, increased activity levels, hyperactivity, restlessness, diarrhea, > an unkept and possibly matted haircoat and a rapid, pounding heartbeat. As > the disease progresses and the body literally becomes worn down, further > signs will include weakness, panting, trouble breathing, increased stool > output and loss of appetite. > Hyperthyroidism is easily treated and in 90% of cases cured with one > treatment of I-131 (radioactive iodine). This treatment is non invasive (no > surgery, only a mild sedative) If you would like to learn more about this > disease, symptoms, and the treatment, visit my site: > http://maxshouse.com in the Endocrine System section. > Phil. > — > "Cats have no masters…just friends" > Good cat health stuff: http://maxshouse.com
– Home Page: http://www.spiritrealm.com/summer/
>Catherine, >You may wish to send a letter requesting information on DCM to Dr. V. Luis >Fuentes, Royal School of Veterinary Studies, Summerhall Square, Summerhall, >Edinburgh EH9 1QH UK. He has done extensive research in DCM and Taurine >therapy which has radically altered the progress of DCM. He has reported >many cats now make a complete recovery after supplementation.
Thanks so much for that information! I’ll see what I can find in the way of research papers, then write him for more information. I had talked to my sister’s father-in-law-to-be, who is a cardiologist, who gave me a little generic information about the disease, but nothing specific to cats. That is very exciting news! Catherine, Loki and Freya — Generic Lame-O Signature Follows: Matos, Catherine Anne Moseley http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~cm85 Yes, I love being a graduate student! Really! I mean it!
Thanks for that clarification, Phil. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Phil, doesn’t hyperthyroidism frequently occur with cardiomyopathy also? > I seem > to recall reading this somewhere. > Not necessarily. Some vets believe hyperthyroidism can contribute to the > cause of HCM, but that hasn’t been proven either way. Some of the symptoms > of HCM are very similar to hyperthyroidism – which is why its sometimes > misdiagnosed. Its not uncommon for a cat to have both diseases at the same > time, but one is not a symptom or result of the other, although its not hard > to understand how hyperthyroidism can possibly contribute to HCM – the cat’s > systems running at top speed. > Any irregular heartbeat, even a murmur should be tested by ultrasounds and > T-4 levels. > Phil. > — > "I have found my love of Cats most helpful in > understanding women" –John Simon > Cat Healthcare, First Aid, Poisons & Toxins & more: > http://maxshouse.com > > > Thank you for the info. I don’t yet know if he has it, vet is about to > run > > > tests because on his last two visits two weeks apart he had a very > fast > > > heart rate. He is Persian, not Maine Coone and reason i took him to > vet > > was > > > because he is rapidly losing weight, down to 8lbs from 10 normally. I > am > > > hoping he doesn’t have it! – but all other tests done to date are > > negative. > > > Helen > > What you described could also be hyperthyroidism. Has your vet checked > your > > cat’s T-4 (hormone) levels? If not, find a new vet. > > Hyperthyroidism is a serious and relatively common endocrine disorder > > resulting from excess in thyroid hormone in the circulation. Most > commonly, > > this condition is caused by a functional (hormone producing) enlargement > of > > the thyroid gland(s) or a hormone producing thyroid tumor. Fortunately, > the > > more serious thyroid carcinoma rarely produces this condition in cats. > In > > about 70% of cats, both thyroid glands will be enlarged and/or contain > tumor > > tissue. The other 30% will have one-sided involvement. As to how or why > > these enlargements or tumors appear is uncertain, but this condition has > > been seen more frequently in the last two decades. (Carcinogenic in pet > > foods could be a possibly) > > Because thyroid hormone exerts a profound effect upon the metabolic rate > of > > all cells in the body, cats with this condition are literally running at > > "top speed" all the time, which is ultimately quite detrimental to the > > health of the cat. Clinical signs include weight loss, an increased if > not > > ravenous appetite, vomiting which may be intermittent, increased thirst > and > > urination, increased activity levels, hyperactivity, restlessness, > diarrhea, > > an unkept and possibly matted haircoat and a rapid, pounding heartbeat. > As > > the disease progresses and the body literally becomes worn down, further > > signs will include weakness, panting, trouble breathing, increased stool > > output and loss of appetite. > > Hyperthyroidism is easily treated and in 90% of cases cured with one > > treatment of I-131 (radioactive iodine). This treatment is non invasive > (no > > surgery, only a mild sedative) If you would like to learn more about > this > > disease, symptoms, and the treatment, visit my site: > > http://maxshouse.com in the Endocrine System section. > > Phil. > > — > > "Cats have no masters…just friends" > > Good cat health stuff: http://maxshouse.com > — > Home Page: http://www.spiritrealm.com/summer/
– Home Page: http://www.spiritrealm.com/summer/
> Thank you very much, Catherine (-: I do not yet know for sure if Harpsie has > this, his ultrasound and, if necessary, x-rays are scheduled for Wed a.m., > fingers crossed!!
Fingers & furry toes are being crossed … & prayers are being said. Let us knwo what you find out. > Helen
– Jonathan Rosenberg 908/730-9171 [voice] 908/730-5920 [fax]
Thank you for the info. (-: Harpsie is under-active and off his food – he eats a quarter of it, then wanders off as if it is all too much effort. This is very unusual for him, in fact it has never happened before, he has always had a healthy appetite. We have changed foods to no avail. Despite this he seems quite happy, which is good because he spent most of the first half of this year pining for his sister who died seven months ago. The vet has done extensive tests including thyroid and everything is normal apart from the heartrate and weightloss/lethargy, and yesterday he puked a lot. I do however have another, stray cat I took in a month ago after he had an operation for hyperactive thyroid so the information you provided was interesting. Thank you for taking the time to respond to me. Helen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >What you described could also be hyperthyroidism. Has your vet checked your >cat’s T-4 (hormone) levels? If not, find a new vet. >Hyperthyroidism is a serious and relatively common endocrine disorder >resulting from excess in thyroid hormone in the circulation. Most commonly, >this condition is caused by a functional (hormone producing) enlargement of >the thyroid gland(s) or a hormone producing thyroid tumor. Fortunately, the >more serious thyroid carcinoma rarely produces this condition in cats. In >about 70% of cats, both thyroid glands will be enlarged and/or contain tumor >tissue. The other 30% will have one-sided involvement. As to how or why >these enlargements or tumors appear is uncertain, but this condition has >been seen more frequently in the last two decades. (Carcinogenic in pet >foods could be a possibly) >Because thyroid hormone exerts a profound effect upon the metabolic rate of >all cells in the body, cats with this condition are literally running at >"top speed" all the time, which is ultimately quite detrimental to the >health of the cat. Clinical signs include weight loss, an increased if not >ravenous appetite, vomiting which may be intermittent, increased thirst and >urination, increased activity levels, hyperactivity, restlessness, diarrhea, >an unkept and possibly matted haircoat and a rapid, pounding heartbeat. As >the disease progresses and the body literally becomes worn down, further >signs will include weakness, panting, trouble breathing, increased stool >output and loss of appetite. >Hyperthyroidism is easily treated and in 90% of cases cured with one >treatment of I-131 (radioactive iodine). This treatment is non invasive (no >surgery, only a mild sedative) If you would like to learn more about this >disease, symptoms, and the treatment, visit my site: >http://maxshouse.com in the Endocrine System section. >Phil. >– >"Cats have no masters…just friends" > Good cat health stuff: http://maxshouse.com
Anybody have any info in this? The websites I have found so far do not make reassuring reading! Helen _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ "The question is not, can they reason? Nor, can they talk? But, can they suffer?" (Jeremy Bentham, 1748-1832)
Feline cardiomyopathy is usually diagnosed too late for much to be done. When we lost our first cat of a pair of twins 6 years ago next month the Dr diagnosed her sister She is still going strong with little or no problem except she is slowing down more each year. She is now 15. Cindy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Anybody have any info in this? The websites I have found so far do not make >reassuring reading! >Helen >_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ >_ _ _ >"The question is not, can they reason? Nor, can they talk? But, can they >suffer?" (Jeremy Bentham, 1748-1832)
My cat, Louella (one of three and the eldest at 6 years) developed CM about 2 years ago – the vet found it at her yearly exam. The vet did an ultrasound and we watched her as she didn’t have symptoms other than a train running in her chest. Then we did another ultrasound and could see the thickening in the heart muscle. He put her on Atenolol a year ago – (5mg/ml) and we give her a 1 ml squirt twice a day – I’m told there is a timed release product, but this works for us as she hates to be pilled. He has cats in has practice that are 16 years old and symptom free. The links paint a grim picture, but we aren’t reading those anymore. She’s doing great and we’re building on that. She has exercise intolerance in the heat, but other than that, she roars around like the others. Our vet said that he can’t prove it, but he thinks this med reverses the disease. I have received emails from so many kind people about how to improve Lou’s diet with vitamins, minerals etc. We’ve been adding flax seed oil for omega 3 acids and vitamin E to start - partly because I can’t get the products that some wonderful people have suggested as I live in Canada. I always add things slowly – never know what they are reacting to!! Good luck – if you need support, email me!! Carolyn —
This is inflammation of the heart wall due to vascular damage . Does you cat have it ? Is it an older cat . It is herditary in maine coons . Obese cats can get it too , if your cat is fat , then try science diet or cat chow mature . Also , its exercise level can be slowly increased if it’s a lay-around cat Visit My Server-space Waster at : http://community.webtv.net/webboxdude/
Thank you for the info. I don’t yet know if he has it, vet is about to run tests because on his last two visits two weeks apart he had a very fast heart rate. He is Persian, not Maine Coone and reason i took him to vet was because he is rapidly losing weight, down to 8lbs from 10 normally. I am hoping he doesn’t have it! – but all other tests done to date are negative. Helen
This is inflammation of the heart wall due to vascular damage . Does you cat have it ? Is it an older cat . It is herditary in maine coons . Obese cats can get it too , if your cat is fat , then try science diet or cat chow mature . Also , its exercise level can be slowly increased if it’s a lay-around cat Visit My Server-space Waster at : http://community.webtv.net/webboxdude/
Thank you Phil, Each of our "girls" have a shelter story and Lou’s condition came as a shock to us. She seemed fine – we have an excellent vet and I attribute her good health to his good care. He is open to everything from traditional medicine to diet, vitamins and homeopathic care. We appreciate your post and are encouraged by your insight to Louella’s condition and treatment. I have only been on this ng for about 6 weeks and I can see you are a trusted and valued member of the group. I live in southern BC, Canada, and our 103 F summers are hard on all of us, but Lou "weathers" them just like the rest of us. Thank you for taking the time to write. She is doing well despite the fact that our pharmacy doesn’t have pet flavouring for this med yet – I am pushing for it for good old Lou – she is a trouper. Carolyn —
>Anybody have any info in this? The websites I have found so far do not make >reassuring reading! >Helen
I agree with you , Helen, what’s out there on "official" links (vetinfo.com, etc) is not all that encouraging. That’s what this group is for. My Loki was diagnosed with dilated CM last October, and it definately freaked me out. But I got a lot of reassurances from people here that it wasn’t the end of the world, and Loki stood a decent chance of living a long normal life, if the medication slowed the progression of the disease. Go to dejanews.com and do a search of this newsgroup for cardiomyopathy, and you should find severl threads. Early detection is key, as others have said in this thread. An ultrasound is going to be your vet’s best tool for a sure diagnosis of the disease (be warned, they are expensive!). I am also a big believer in vitamins (specifically, extra taurine) for this disease. In the words of more than one vet- "Can’t hurt, might help", and it’s very inexpensive. Taurine deficiency is one major cause of dilated cardiomyopathy, so if your cat is at all like mine (doesn’t eat a lot of regular cat food, eats a lot of treats which don’t have taurine), that _might_ be the cause. Since most cat food have extra taurine added to them now, a lot of vets don’t think to ask about that possibility. My vet said that there has also been some evidence (no concrete studies yet, though) that taurine can help reverse or slow CM, even if not caused by a taurine deficiency. At his nine month checkup, they (my vet and the ultrasound vet) were amazed at the results- that there was virtually no progression in the disease. It might be due only to the Atenolol, it might be due to the extra taurine, but I plan on continuing both for a long, long time. Hope your vet has reassuring news for you!! Catherine, Loki and Freya — Generic Lame-O Signature Follows: Matos, Catherine Anne Moseley http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~cm85 Yes, I love being a graduate student! Really! I mean it!
Posted and e-mailed Thank you very much, Catherine (-: I do not yet know for sure if Harpsie has this, his ultrasound and, if necessary, x-rays are scheduled for Wed a.m., fingers crossed!! If he does have it I doubt he has had it for long, his heart rate was too fast on his last two vet visits which were last week and two weeks earlier but it was fine before then. I will check the old Dejanews in the meantime as you suggested. Helen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I agree with you , Helen, what’s out there on "official" links (vetinfo.com, >etc) is not all that encouraging. That’s what this group is for. My Loki >was diagnosed with dilated CM last October, and it definately freaked me >out. But I got a lot of reassurances from people here that it wasn’t the >end of the world, and Loki stood a decent chance of living a long normal >life, if the medication slowed the progression of the disease. Go to >dejanews.com and do a search of this newsgroup for cardiomyopathy, and you >should find severl threads. Early detection is key, as others have said in >this thread. An ultrasound is going to be your vet’s best tool for a sure >diagnosis of the disease (be warned, they are expensive!). I am also a big >believer in vitamins (specifically, extra taurine) for this disease. In >the words of more than one vet- "Can’t hurt, might help", and it’s very >inexpensive. Taurine deficiency is one major cause of dilated cardiomyopathy, >so if your cat is at all like mine (doesn’t eat a lot of regular cat food, >eats a lot of treats which don’t have taurine), that _might_ be the cause. >Since most cat food have extra taurine added to them now, a lot of vets don’t >think to ask about that possibility. My vet said that there has also been some >evidence (no concrete studies yet, though) that taurine can help reverse >or slow CM, even if not caused by a taurine deficiency. At his nine month >checkup, they (my vet and the ultrasound vet) were amazed at the results- >that there was virtually no progression in the disease. It might be due only >to the Atenolol, it might be due to the extra taurine, but I plan on continuing >both for a long, long time. >Hope your vet has reassuring news for you!! >Catherine, Loki and Freya >– >Generic Lame-O Signature Follows: >Matos, Catherine Anne Moseley >http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~cm85 >Yes, I love being a graduate student! Really! I mean it!
>hello there…i was wondering if anyone has had a kitty with this >condition…i >understand it is rather common in the maine coon breed…can anyone tell me >what the symptoms are? thanks a lot, harriet
Some of the symptoms are difficulty breathing, lethargy, weakness, abdominal swelling, but many times the first symptom is sudden death. You can check with your vet and get your MC screened for the disease. Cardiomyopathy is also common in ragdolls, and common in cross-bred longghaired cats. I understand the reason for this isn’t really known. Good luck. Sherry
>Some of the symptoms are difficulty breathing, lethargy, weakness, abdominal >swelling, but many times the first symptom is sudden death. You can check with >your vet and get your MC screened for the disease. Cardiomyopathy is also >common in ragdolls, and common in cross-bred longghaired cats. I understand the >reason for this isn’t really known. Good luck.
I think it’s rather common in all cats. It’s not a rare disease at all, it’s just a disease with little statistics. Since most time it shows no symptoms until the cat dies, you must add all the uncounted deaths: strays, of course. Plus, outdoor cats when they disappear for a couple of days and you find them dead and decide it can have been anything from a car to poison to abuse. All the cats who die all of a sudden and get buried without an authopsy… We feel that it’s most common in breed cats just because breeders are most likely to be wanting to discover why their cat suddenly died. This is just my feeling of course… but I’m ready to bet on it :-/
> hello there…i was wondering if anyone has had a kitty with this condition…i > understand it is rather common in the maine coon breed…can anyone tell me > what the symptoms are? thanks a lot, harriet
My Maine Coon mix was diagnosed two years ago. The vet noticed a heart murmur during his annual exam and sent us to a referral clinic for an ultrasound exam. He has no other symptoms as yet. He’s a good patient: takes his Diltiazem twice a day without a fuss. Follow-up ultrasound exams every six months have shown no worsening of the condition so far. I put in the pills, put in extra love, and take it a day at a time. Roby
> hello there…i was wondering if anyone has had a kitty with this condition…i > understand it is rather common in the maine coon breed…
The true incidence/prevalence is unknown, but a familial association has been documented in Maine Coons and Persians. HCM also appears to be common in Rag Dolls. However, it must be kept in mind that diseases and congential defects are generally better documented in pedigrees than in natural-bred cats. can anyone tell me > what the symptoms are? thanks a lot, harriet
Dyspnea Anorexia Exercise intolerance Vomiting Collapse Hindlimb paresis/paralysis Sudden death Visit my site for more information: http://maxshouse.com/hypertrophic_cardiomyopathy.htm Clinical Manifestations http://maxshouse.com/arterial_thromboembolism.htm HTH, Phil.
thanks a lot for responding everyone…i checked out your site, phil…it’s great…harriet
hello there…i was wondering if anyone has had a kitty with this condition…i understand it is rather common in the maine coon breed…can anyone tell me what the symptoms are? thanks a lot, harriet
> Could you dissolve it in liquid and divide it four ways? Obviously > that wouldn’t work for all drugs, but a water-soluble one ought to > make a pretty consistent mixture. That’s actually what I hope to do > if I ever have to pill mine again — I have had better luck giving > them liquid than pills (as I’ve posted here before). I just don’t > have enough hands for pills. I’d need a minimum of three, but about > eight would be ideal — one to scruff, two to open mouth (one per jaw), > one to insert pill, and the other four to restrain the razor-sharp > implements of destruction so as to protect the first four hands. :-)
whew. i’m lucky. i guess. lennie is quite used to being handled (or man- handled!) because i brush his teeth every day, having only to hold him gently by the head with one hand. the pills are the same. i get him to sit, like you might a dog, and while one hand holds his head (just in front of the ears, on either cheek) the other hand is thumb and middle finger holding pill to be given forefinger pries down lower jaw (my other hand hold his head) he naturally cranks up his face so it’s straight down to the back of his throat. sometimes his tongue is perfectly out of the way and i can literally drop the pill in! my other cat, no way. i would need the two-person approach. — rob
>crushing sounds good, but it’s pitifully little material to divide four >ways.
I wondered, since I didn’t know how big these tablets are to begin with. >an idea along the same lines is to mix the crushed powder with an inert >other material like powdered sugar in order to get sufficient mass for split-
Could you dissolve it in liquid and divide it four ways? Obviously that wouldn’t work for all drugs, but a water-soluble one ought to make a pretty consistent mixture. That’s actually what I hope to do if I ever have to pill mine again — I have had better luck giving them liquid than pills (as I’ve posted here before). I just don’t have enough hands for pills. I’d need a minimum of three, but about eight would be ideal — one to scruff, two to open mouth (one per jaw), one to insert pill, and the other four to restrain the razor-sharp implements of destruction so as to protect the first four hands. :-) (Though really, they’ve relaxed a bit lately — I bathed them the other week with only one minor scratch and no actual bleeding, and nobody climbed up my front higher than my chest before I could get them peeled off [they used to get over my shoulder and take flying leaps from my upper back]. And they’ve suddenly decided they like being brushed, after hating it. So maybe I could do it now. Glad I don’t need to.) >i doubt lennie could be trained to Hoover up lines of sugar/atenolol using >a little tiny straw…
Ha ha. Probably not. :-) Good luck, anyway, to you and everyone dealing with sick cats. — Senior Network Specialist Rice University Networking & Telecommunications This message is my personal opinion. I don’t speak for Rice.
Carone, I have two suggestions, and I hope one of them is possible. First, why does the pharmacy have to make up a month’s supply? Why not buy it in a two-week size increment? Second, maybe you could have the pharmacy crush the pills and divide the appropriate doses up into gel caps. No flavor, easy to swallow, no worries about the medication going bad since it isn’t in a more volatile suspension. Good luck. Laura Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com
> Could you just crush it on purpose, and then divide up the resulting > powder? They even make pill crushers. I have one that’s a crusher…
the splitter i treid was a very good crusher, haha. crushing sounds good, but it’s pitifully little material to divide four ways. i tried doing this using a laboratory scale to get accurate piles, but a 0.01 gram accuracy/resolution was too coarse for results. an idea along the same lines is to mix the crushed powder with an inert other material like powdered sugar in order to get sufficient mass for split- ing by weight… then i’d worry about the consistency of the mix, and there’d still be the problem of dealing with the powder… i doubt lennie could be trained to Hoover up lines of sugar/atenolol using a little tiny straw… — rob
>I guess I am just lucky and got a good pill splitter. I’m sure it will get >dull though. > >Geez, that’s alot of work. I just use a pill splitter. > I’ve tried different pill splitters but they only crushed the darn thing.
Could you just crush it on purpose, and then divide up the resulting powder? They even make pill crushers. I have one that’s a crusher *and* a splitter — the splitter for some things I take occasionally, and the crusher in case I ever have to give the cats a pill again. (And it has a pillbox section, AND you can use the bottom part of the crushing area as a tiny water cup… such a deal, eh? So far I’ve only ever used the splitter.) Note that some pills should NOT be split or crushed, especially sustained release types. Ask vet or pharmacist. Obviously that’s not a problem in this case, just wanted to mention it for general info. — Senior Network Specialist Rice University Networking & Telecommunications This message is my personal opinion. I don’t speak for Rice.
I guess I am just lucky and got a good pill splitter. I’m sure it will get dull though.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Geez, that’s alot of work. I just use a pill splitter. > I’ve tried different pill splitters but they only crushed the darn thing. > Mewdy Blue, by the way, also comes running for his pill. It is so funny to > see him appear from out of nowhere when I shake his pill bottle. I know that > he relates it to the fact that he gets baby food immediately following the > pill to be sure it goes down, but the whole idea is funny! Of course the > other cats have caught on to the whole trick as well, so now I have to give > at least seven other cats baby food every evening. It works out okay, > though, since now if they ever need meds they will get them the same way as > Mewdy Blue! > — > Andrea > aka Cheshire Cat
I only have to pill him once a day. I can’t get the Atenolol at my vet. I got a prescription from the vet and take it to a regular (people) pharmacy for filling. Have you tried that? I think these pills are taken by humans and that is why they have to be quartered. Jean – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >No – In Canada, we can’t get the small pills – they dissolve the huge human >pills and we go to a special pharmacy that flavours it with beef or chicken, but >for some reason, the suspension, which has been working well for two years, is >breaking down into something that is either horrible tasting or dangerous and >she coughs and gags like she has a hair ball at then end of a two week period. >So we throw it out and have a new batch made every two weeks. The suspension is >$16 for a month’s supply, so we can’t keep doing this – so we are looking South >to see what the American vets are rxing and will see if the border towns will >accept the rx of a Canadian vet. >I was corresponding with someone on this ng about two years ago and I thought >that there was a time release Atenolol (or something in the same family of >drugs) that only required once a day pilling or maybe I’ve got it wrong. Do you >only have to pill once a day with the pills and I have to squirt twice a day >with the suspension? Thanks to all who wrote – I’ll print this off and take it >to my vet when I take Louella in for her check up. We are all a bit concerned >about this suspension breaking down because if it’s happening to her, it’s going >to happen for all of his animals that have CDM – we only have one pet dispensing >pharmacy – the others just get the unflavoured med from the regular pharmacies – >we tried that and medication time was a nightmare!!! So, we are on day 3 of the >new batch and are on a count down. >Carone
Willie comes running too and is so jealous of Spot being given "something" pouting. I decided that I would make him feel better so I picked him up and layed him on his side, just like I do Spot. I stuffed a tiny bit of sausage down his throat like a pill. He was not amused. <s> Jean – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Geez, that’s alot of work. I just use a pill splitter. >I’ve tried different pill splitters but they only crushed the darn thing. >Mewdy Blue, by the way, also comes running for his pill. It is so funny to >see him appear from out of nowhere when I shake his pill bottle. I know that >he relates it to the fact that he gets baby food immediately following the >pill to be sure it goes down, but the whole idea is funny! Of course the >other cats have caught on to the whole trick as well, so now I have to give >at least seven other cats baby food every evening. It works out okay, >though, since now if they ever need meds they will get them the same way as >Mewdy Blue! >– >Andrea >aka Cheshire Cat
>Geez, that’s alot of work. I just use a pill splitter.
I’ve tried different pill splitters but they only crushed the darn thing. Mewdy Blue, by the way, also comes running for his pill. It is so funny to see him appear from out of nowhere when I shake his pill bottle. I know that he relates it to the fact that he gets baby food immediately following the pill to be sure it goes down, but the whole idea is funny! Of course the other cats have caught on to the whole trick as well, so now I have to give at least seven other cats baby food every evening. It works out okay, though, since now if they ever need meds they will get them the same way as Mewdy Blue! — Andrea aka Cheshire Cat
Geez, that’s alot of work. I just use a pill splitter. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->… The Atenolol is in pill form and I have to cut it into quarters which is > sort of hard to do since they are very small to begin with and I usually > manage to salvage two or 3 correct size peices from a tablet but they are > very inexpensive so I don’t mind. > across the top with an "X" using an X-Acto razor knife. > i sorta saw back and forth to make a good line both ways. > then i use the edge of the blade to make a nick on the back side of the > pill at the four endpoints of the score marks on the top side, flip the > pill over and score it by sawing back and forth again between the nicks. > then i find i can *snap* the pill into four pretty equal-sized pieces, > even though i lose a bit to the sawing process i think we are OK. > they are cheap, though, as you say, so i don’t mind losing the occasional > pill. i discard any that are obviuosly bad. > i get set and carve up in this fashion a week or two’s worth and store them > in one of those little 7 day pill minder things they make for senior > citizens. > lennie doesn’t exactly come running, but he does cooperate. the best is when > i can open his mouth real wide and drop the pill beyond the "point of no > return" – totally painless and pleasant. most times, though, i have to give > the pill a little help by pushing it down his throat (quickly) with my finger. > i also have just recieved 1000 (!) #3 gel caps – these i load up with the > pill fragments (and his baby aspirin, every third day) for when others > have to give him the pill. it makes it easier to see what you are doing and > to confirm that you have, in fact, done it. > in the beginning i would come across little tiny damp 1/4 Atenolol pills > in lennie’s bedding – what a little sneak! but now i see it go down and > i am happy to know we are doing what we can. > he’s really so good about the pills, i hafta brag on him a bit here. > — rob
> Are you using the liquid because you are not able to pill her?
No – In Canada, we can’t get the small pills – they dissolve the huge human pills and we go to a special pharmacy that flavours it with beef or chicken, but for some reason, the suspension, which has been working well for two years, is breaking down into something that is either horrible tasting or dangerous and she coughs and gags like she has a hair ball at then end of a two week period. So we throw it out and have a new batch made every two weeks. The suspension is $16 for a month’s supply, so we can’t keep doing this – so we are looking South to see what the American vets are rxing and will see if the border towns will accept the rx of a Canadian vet. I was corresponding with someone on this ng about two years ago and I thought that there was a time release Atenolol (or something in the same family of drugs) that only required once a day pilling or maybe I’ve got it wrong. Do you only have to pill once a day with the pills and I have to squirt twice a day with the suspension? Thanks to all who wrote – I’ll print this off and take it to my vet when I take Louella in for her check up. We are all a bit concerned about this suspension breaking down because if it’s happening to her, it’s going to happen for all of his animals that have CDM – we only have one pet dispensing pharmacy – the others just get the unflavoured med from the regular pharmacies – we tried that and medication time was a nightmare!!! So, we are on day 3 of the new batch and are on a count down. Carone
If interested in finding out more about cardizem SR your vet may want to contact Dr. Miller at Texas A+M. Here is a link to his bio. Cardiology Staff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I think the time release tablets you are speaking of are called Dilacor > which is a time released form of diltiazem. Diltiazem is very different > from atenolol. Both meds are used to treat cardiomyopathy in cats but in > some instances atenolol is prefered (eg systolic anterior motion of the > mitral valve (SAM) viewed on ultrasound). Therefore the first thing to > learn is whether it is acceptable to change your cat’s meds to diltiazem. > Dilacor is not available in Canada but there is a time released diltiazem > product which you can get in Canada called Cardizem SR. I recently spoke > to an American veterinary cardiologist – Mathew Miller – who prefers this > formulation over Dilacor. Cardizem SR comes in capsules containing many > small time release beads. The calculated dose is compounded into smaller > capsules or can be sprinkled on the food. Perhaps you can ask your vet > about this possibility. But PLEASE don’t make any changes in meds on your > own. > Dogen > Can any one help? I’ve been off the group for a long while as we were > purring away up here. Louella’s cardiomyopathy is controlled with > Atenolol 5 mg in 60 ml suspension – 1cc twice a day. The suspension > is breaking down every two weeks much to the pharmacist’s dismay (and > ours) and turing into something that is making her gag and throw up. > So we are having it made fresh every two weeks and we can’t go on like > this!! We only have one pharmacy that dispenses the pet flavoured > meds – it was working so well <big sigh> > Our vet is willing to help us get the time release tablets (with the > help of our American friends) and I said I’d save him a step by making > a few inquiries – what are are the American vets rxing – is it > Atenolol? I’ll have to find a pharmacy that is friendly to dispensing > on a Canadian vet’s script pad. We can’t get the timed release > tablets up here and are going to try to find a way to do some "cross > border shopping" – I’m in BC, by the way. Thanks a bunch if you can > help. > Carone
I think the time release tablets you are speaking of are called Dilacor which is a time released form of diltiazem. Diltiazem is very different from atenolol. Both meds are used to treat cardiomyopathy in cats but in some instances atenolol is prefered (eg systolic anterior motion of the mitral valve (SAM) viewed on ultrasound). Therefore the first thing to learn is whether it is acceptable to change your cat’s meds to diltiazem. Dilacor is not available in Canada but there is a time released diltiazem product which you can get in Canada called Cardizem SR. I recently spoke to an American veterinary cardiologist – Mathew Miller – who prefers this formulation over Dilacor. Cardizem SR comes in capsules containing many small time release beads. The calculated dose is compounded into smaller capsules or can be sprinkled on the food. Perhaps you can ask your vet about this possibility. But PLEASE don’t make any changes in meds on your own. Dogen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Can any one help? I’ve been off the group for a long while as we were > purring away up here. Louella’s cardiomyopathy is controlled with > Atenolol 5 mg in 60 ml suspension – 1cc twice a day. The suspension > is breaking down every two weeks much to the pharmacist’s dismay (and > ours) and turing into something that is making her gag and throw up. > So we are having it made fresh every two weeks and we can’t go on like > this!! We only have one pharmacy that dispenses the pet flavoured > meds – it was working so well <big sigh> > Our vet is willing to help us get the time release tablets (with the > help of our American friends) and I said I’d save him a step by making > a few inquiries – what are are the American vets rxing – is it > Atenolol? I’ll have to find a pharmacy that is friendly to dispensing > on a Canadian vet’s script pad. We can’t get the timed release > tablets up here and are going to try to find a way to do some "cross > border shopping" – I’m in BC, by the way. Thanks a bunch if you can > help. > Carone
>… The Atenolol is in pill form and I have to cut it into quarters which is > sort of hard to do since they are very small to begin with and I usually > manage to salvage two or 3 correct size peices from a tablet but they are > very inexpensive so I don’t mind.
across the top with an "X" using an X-Acto razor knife. i sorta saw back and forth to make a good line both ways. then i use the edge of the blade to make a nick on the back side of the pill at the four endpoints of the score marks on the top side, flip the pill over and score it by sawing back and forth again between the nicks. then i find i can *snap* the pill into four pretty equal-sized pieces, even though i lose a bit to the sawing process i think we are OK. they are cheap, though, as you say, so i don’t mind losing the occasional pill. i discard any that are obviuosly bad. i get set and carve up in this fashion a week or two’s worth and store them in one of those little 7 day pill minder things they make for senior citizens. lennie doesn’t exactly come running, but he does cooperate. the best is when i can open his mouth real wide and drop the pill beyond the "point of no return" – totally painless and pleasant. most times, though, i have to give the pill a little help by pushing it down his throat (quickly) with my finger. i also have just recieved 1000 (!) #3 gel caps – these i load up with the pill fragments (and his baby aspirin, every third day) for when others have to give him the pill. it makes it easier to see what you are doing and to confirm that you have, in fact, done it. in the beginning i would come across little tiny damp 1/4 Atenolol pills in lennie’s bedding – what a little sneak! but now i see it go down and i am happy to know we are doing what we can. he’s really so good about the pills, i hafta brag on him a bit here. — rob
My cat is on atenolol for HCM. He takes one quarter of a 25 mg tablet every other day. It was once a day until the condition improved. I do not know if these are time released tablets or not. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Can any one help? I’ve been off the group for a long while as we were > purring away up here. Louella’s cardiomyopathy is controlled with > Atenolol 5 mg in 60 ml suspension – 1cc twice a day. The suspension > is breaking down every two weeks much to the pharmacist’s dismay (and > ours) and turing into something that is making her gag and throw up. > So we are having it made fresh every two weeks and we can’t go on like > this!! We only have one pharmacy that dispenses the pet flavoured > meds – it was working so well <big sigh> > Our vet is willing to help us get the time release tablets (with the > help of our American friends) and I said I’d save him a step by making > a few inquiries – what are are the American vets rxing – is it > Atenolol? I’ll have to find a pharmacy that is friendly to dispensing > on a Canadian vet’s script pad. We can’t get the timed release > tablets up here and are going to try to find a way to do some "cross > border shopping" – I’m in BC, by the way. Thanks a bunch if you can > help. > Carone
My Maine Coon Blue jumps up on the kitchen counter for his pills. I pop it in his mouth and it is gone. He actually gets all excited when he hears the pill bottle! He thinks that when I’m taking my medication, that he should get his too.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Here is what Spot takes for his Cardiomyopathy: > these once a day. Then a baby aspirin every third day. > The Atenolol is in pill form and I have to cut it into quarters which is > sort of hard to do since they are very small to begin with and I usually > manage to salvage two or 3 correct size peices from a tablet but they are > very inexpensive so I don’t mind. The Enacard is another story, it is > almost $1. per pill. > He is doing very well. He comes running to take his medicine and gets it > first thing in the mornings. He gets a tiny bit of Healthy Choice smoked > sausage and that is what makes him come running. > Are you using the liquid because you are not able to pill her? I lay Spot > in my lap on his side, open his mouth and shove the pills in the back of his > mouth quickly. They usually go down and if I can get them back for enough, > he helps and just swallows them. He knows he has to do it and over time has > learned to cooperate. > Good luck. > Jean >Can any one help? I’ve been off the group for a long while as we were >purring away up here. Louella’s cardiomyopathy is controlled with >Atenolol 5 mg in 60 ml suspension – 1cc twice a day. The suspension >is breaking down every two weeks much to the pharmacist’s dismay (and >ours) and turing into something that is making her gag and throw up. >So we are having it made fresh every two weeks and we can’t go on like >this!! We only have one pharmacy that dispenses the pet flavoured >meds – it was working so well <big sigh> >Our vet is willing to help us get the time release tablets (with the >help of our American friends) and I said I’d save him a step by making >a few inquiries – what are are the American vets rxing – is it >Atenolol? I’ll have to find a pharmacy that is friendly to dispensing >on a Canadian vet’s script pad. We can’t get the timed release >tablets up here and are going to try to find a way to do some "cross >border shopping" – I’m in BC, by the way. Thanks a bunch if you can >help. >Carone
Here is what Spot takes for his Cardiomyopathy: these once a day. Then a baby aspirin every third day. The Atenolol is in pill form and I have to cut it into quarters which is sort of hard to do since they are very small to begin with and I usually manage to salvage two or 3 correct size peices from a tablet but they are very inexpensive so I don’t mind. The Enacard is another story, it is almost $1. per pill. He is doing very well. He comes running to take his medicine and gets it first thing in the mornings. He gets a tiny bit of Healthy Choice smoked sausage and that is what makes him come running. Are you using the liquid because you are not able to pill her? I lay Spot in my lap on his side, open his mouth and shove the pills in the back of his mouth quickly. They usually go down and if I can get them back for enough, he helps and just swallows them. He knows he has to do it and over time has learned to cooperate. Good luck. Jean – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Can any one help? I’ve been off the group for a long while as we were >purring away up here. Louella’s cardiomyopathy is controlled with >Atenolol 5 mg in 60 ml suspension – 1cc twice a day. The suspension >is breaking down every two weeks much to the pharmacist’s dismay (and >ours) and turing into something that is making her gag and throw up. >So we are having it made fresh every two weeks and we can’t go on like >this!! We only have one pharmacy that dispenses the pet flavoured >meds – it was working so well <big sigh> >Our vet is willing to help us get the time release tablets (with the >help of our American friends) and I said I’d save him a step by making >a few inquiries – what are are the American vets rxing – is it >Atenolol? I’ll have to find a pharmacy that is friendly to dispensing >on a Canadian vet’s script pad. We can’t get the timed release >tablets up here and are going to try to find a way to do some "cross >border shopping" – I’m in BC, by the way. Thanks a bunch if you can >help. >Carone
Can any one help? I’ve been off the group for a long while as we were purring away up here. Louella’s cardiomyopathy is controlled with Atenolol 5 mg in 60 ml suspension – 1cc twice a day. The suspension is breaking down every two weeks much to the pharmacist’s dismay (and ours) and turing into something that is making her gag and throw up. So we are having it made fresh every two weeks and we can’t go on like this!! We only have one pharmacy that dispenses the pet flavoured meds – it was working so well <big sigh> Our vet is willing to help us get the time release tablets (with the help of our American friends) and I said I’d save him a step by making a few inquiries – what are are the American vets rxing – is it Atenolol? I’ll have to find a pharmacy that is friendly to dispensing on a Canadian vet’s script pad. We can’t get the timed release tablets up here and are going to try to find a way to do some "cross border shopping" – I’m in BC, by the way. Thanks a bunch if you can help. Carone
Phil, doesn’t hyperthyroidism frequently occur with cardiomyopathy also? I seem to recall reading this somewhere. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Thank you for the info. I don’t yet know if he has it, vet is about to run > tests because on his last two visits two weeks apart he had a very fast > heart rate. He is Persian, not Maine Coone and reason i took him to vet > was > because he is rapidly losing weight, down to 8lbs from 10 normally. I am > hoping he doesn’t have it! – but all other tests done to date are > negative. > Helen > What you described could also be hyperthyroidism. Has your vet checked your > cat’s T-4 (hormone) levels? If not, find a new vet. > Hyperthyroidism is a serious and relatively common endocrine disorder > resulting from excess in thyroid hormone in the circulation. Most commonly, > this condition is caused by a functional (hormone producing) enlargement of > the thyroid gland(s) or a hormone producing thyroid tumor. Fortunately, the > more serious thyroid carcinoma rarely produces this condition in cats. In > about 70% of cats, both thyroid glands will be enlarged and/or contain tumor > tissue. The other 30% will have one-sided involvement. As to how or why > these enlargements or tumors appear is uncertain, but this condition has > been seen more frequently in the last two decades. (Carcinogenic in pet > foods could be a possibly) > Because thyroid hormone exerts a profound effect upon the metabolic rate of > all cells in the body, cats with this condition are literally running at > "top speed" all the time, which is ultimately quite detrimental to the > health of the cat. Clinical signs include weight loss, an increased if not > ravenous appetite, vomiting which may be intermittent, increased thirst and > urination, increased activity levels, hyperactivity, restlessness, diarrhea, > an unkept and possibly matted haircoat and a rapid, pounding heartbeat. As > the disease progresses and the body literally becomes worn down, further > signs will include weakness, panting, trouble breathing, increased stool > output and loss of appetite. > Hyperthyroidism is easily treated and in 90% of cases cured with one > treatment of I-131 (radioactive iodine). This treatment is non invasive (no > surgery, only a mild sedative) If you would like to learn more about this > disease, symptoms, and the treatment, visit my site: > http://maxshouse.com in the Endocrine System section. > Phil. > — > "Cats have no masters…just friends" > Good cat health stuff: http://maxshouse.com
– Home Page: http://www.spiritrealm.com/summer/
>Catherine, >You may wish to send a letter requesting information on DCM to Dr. V. Luis >Fuentes, Royal School of Veterinary Studies, Summerhall Square, Summerhall, >Edinburgh EH9 1QH UK. He has done extensive research in DCM and Taurine >therapy which has radically altered the progress of DCM. He has reported >many cats now make a complete recovery after supplementation.
Thanks so much for that information! I’ll see what I can find in the way of research papers, then write him for more information. I had talked to my sister’s father-in-law-to-be, who is a cardiologist, who gave me a little generic information about the disease, but nothing specific to cats. That is very exciting news! Catherine, Loki and Freya — Generic Lame-O Signature Follows: Matos, Catherine Anne Moseley http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~cm85 Yes, I love being a graduate student! Really! I mean it!
Thanks for that clarification, Phil. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Phil, doesn’t hyperthyroidism frequently occur with cardiomyopathy also? > I seem > to recall reading this somewhere. > Not necessarily. Some vets believe hyperthyroidism can contribute to the > cause of HCM, but that hasn’t been proven either way. Some of the symptoms > of HCM are very similar to hyperthyroidism – which is why its sometimes > misdiagnosed. Its not uncommon for a cat to have both diseases at the same > time, but one is not a symptom or result of the other, although its not hard > to understand how hyperthyroidism can possibly contribute to HCM – the cat’s > systems running at top speed. > Any irregular heartbeat, even a murmur should be tested by ultrasounds and > T-4 levels. > Phil. > — > "I have found my love of Cats most helpful in > understanding women" –John Simon > Cat Healthcare, First Aid, Poisons & Toxins & more: > http://maxshouse.com > > > Thank you for the info. I don’t yet know if he has it, vet is about to > run > > > tests because on his last two visits two weeks apart he had a very > fast > > > heart rate. He is Persian, not Maine Coone and reason i took him to > vet > > was > > > because he is rapidly losing weight, down to 8lbs from 10 normally. I > am > > > hoping he doesn’t have it! – but all other tests done to date are > > negative. > > > Helen > > What you described could also be hyperthyroidism. Has your vet checked > your > > cat’s T-4 (hormone) levels? If not, find a new vet. > > Hyperthyroidism is a serious and relatively common endocrine disorder > > resulting from excess in thyroid hormone in the circulation. Most > commonly, > > this condition is caused by a functional (hormone producing) enlargement > of > > the thyroid gland(s) or a hormone producing thyroid tumor. Fortunately, > the > > more serious thyroid carcinoma rarely produces this condition in cats. > In > > about 70% of cats, both thyroid glands will be enlarged and/or contain > tumor > > tissue. The other 30% will have one-sided involvement. As to how or why > > these enlargements or tumors appear is uncertain, but this condition has > > been seen more frequently in the last two decades. (Carcinogenic in pet > > foods could be a possibly) > > Because thyroid hormone exerts a profound effect upon the metabolic rate > of > > all cells in the body, cats with this condition are literally running at > > "top speed" all the time, which is ultimately quite detrimental to the > > health of the cat. Clinical signs include weight loss, an increased if > not > > ravenous appetite, vomiting which may be intermittent, increased thirst > and > > urination, increased activity levels, hyperactivity, restlessness, > diarrhea, > > an unkept and possibly matted haircoat and a rapid, pounding heartbeat. > As > > the disease progresses and the body literally becomes worn down, further > > signs will include weakness, panting, trouble breathing, increased stool > > output and loss of appetite. > > Hyperthyroidism is easily treated and in 90% of cases cured with one > > treatment of I-131 (radioactive iodine). This treatment is non invasive > (no > > surgery, only a mild sedative) If you would like to learn more about > this > > disease, symptoms, and the treatment, visit my site: > > http://maxshouse.com in the Endocrine System section. > > Phil. > > — > > "Cats have no masters…just friends" > > Good cat health stuff: http://maxshouse.com > — > Home Page: http://www.spiritrealm.com/summer/
– Home Page: http://www.spiritrealm.com/summer/
> Thank you very much, Catherine (-: I do not yet know for sure if Harpsie has > this, his ultrasound and, if necessary, x-rays are scheduled for Wed a.m., > fingers crossed!!
Fingers & furry toes are being crossed … & prayers are being said. Let us knwo what you find out. > Helen
– Jonathan Rosenberg 908/730-9171 [voice] 908/730-5920 [fax]
Thank you for the info. (-: Harpsie is under-active and off his food – he eats a quarter of it, then wanders off as if it is all too much effort. This is very unusual for him, in fact it has never happened before, he has always had a healthy appetite. We have changed foods to no avail. Despite this he seems quite happy, which is good because he spent most of the first half of this year pining for his sister who died seven months ago. The vet has done extensive tests including thyroid and everything is normal apart from the heartrate and weightloss/lethargy, and yesterday he puked a lot. I do however have another, stray cat I took in a month ago after he had an operation for hyperactive thyroid so the information you provided was interesting. Thank you for taking the time to respond to me. Helen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >What you described could also be hyperthyroidism. Has your vet checked your >cat’s T-4 (hormone) levels? If not, find a new vet. >Hyperthyroidism is a serious and relatively common endocrine disorder >resulting from excess in thyroid hormone in the circulation. Most commonly, >this condition is caused by a functional (hormone producing) enlargement of >the thyroid gland(s) or a hormone producing thyroid tumor. Fortunately, the >more serious thyroid carcinoma rarely produces this condition in cats. In >about 70% of cats, both thyroid glands will be enlarged and/or contain tumor >tissue. The other 30% will have one-sided involvement. As to how or why >these enlargements or tumors appear is uncertain, but this condition has >been seen more frequently in the last two decades. (Carcinogenic in pet >foods could be a possibly) >Because thyroid hormone exerts a profound effect upon the metabolic rate of >all cells in the body, cats with this condition are literally running at >"top speed" all the time, which is ultimately quite detrimental to the >health of the cat. Clinical signs include weight loss, an increased if not >ravenous appetite, vomiting which may be intermittent, increased thirst and >urination, increased activity levels, hyperactivity, restlessness, diarrhea, >an unkept and possibly matted haircoat and a rapid, pounding heartbeat. As >the disease progresses and the body literally becomes worn down, further >signs will include weakness, panting, trouble breathing, increased stool >output and loss of appetite. >Hyperthyroidism is easily treated and in 90% of cases cured with one >treatment of I-131 (radioactive iodine). This treatment is non invasive (no >surgery, only a mild sedative) If you would like to learn more about this >disease, symptoms, and the treatment, visit my site: >http://maxshouse.com in the Endocrine System section. >Phil. >– >"Cats have no masters…just friends" > Good cat health stuff: http://maxshouse.com
Anybody have any info in this? The websites I have found so far do not make reassuring reading! Helen _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ "The question is not, can they reason? Nor, can they talk? But, can they suffer?" (Jeremy Bentham, 1748-1832)
Feline cardiomyopathy is usually diagnosed too late for much to be done. When we lost our first cat of a pair of twins 6 years ago next month the Dr diagnosed her sister She is still going strong with little or no problem except she is slowing down more each year. She is now 15. Cindy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Anybody have any info in this? The websites I have found so far do not make >reassuring reading! >Helen >_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ >_ _ _ >"The question is not, can they reason? Nor, can they talk? But, can they >suffer?" (Jeremy Bentham, 1748-1832)
My cat, Louella (one of three and the eldest at 6 years) developed CM about 2 years ago – the vet found it at her yearly exam. The vet did an ultrasound and we watched her as she didn’t have symptoms other than a train running in her chest. Then we did another ultrasound and could see the thickening in the heart muscle. He put her on Atenolol a year ago – (5mg/ml) and we give her a 1 ml squirt twice a day – I’m told there is a timed release product, but this works for us as she hates to be pilled. He has cats in has practice that are 16 years old and symptom free. The links paint a grim picture, but we aren’t reading those anymore. She’s doing great and we’re building on that. She has exercise intolerance in the heat, but other than that, she roars around like the others. Our vet said that he can’t prove it, but he thinks this med reverses the disease. I have received emails from so many kind people about how to improve Lou’s diet with vitamins, minerals etc. We’ve been adding flax seed oil for omega 3 acids and vitamin E to start - partly because I can’t get the products that some wonderful people have suggested as I live in Canada. I always add things slowly – never know what they are reacting to!! Good luck – if you need support, email me!! Carolyn —
This is inflammation of the heart wall due to vascular damage . Does you cat have it ? Is it an older cat . It is herditary in maine coons . Obese cats can get it too , if your cat is fat , then try science diet or cat chow mature . Also , its exercise level can be slowly increased if it’s a lay-around cat Visit My Server-space Waster at : http://community.webtv.net/webboxdude/
Thank you for the info. I don’t yet know if he has it, vet is about to run tests because on his last two visits two weeks apart he had a very fast heart rate. He is Persian, not Maine Coone and reason i took him to vet was because he is rapidly losing weight, down to 8lbs from 10 normally. I am hoping he doesn’t have it! – but all other tests done to date are negative. Helen
This is inflammation of the heart wall due to vascular damage . Does you cat have it ? Is it an older cat . It is herditary in maine coons . Obese cats can get it too , if your cat is fat , then try science diet or cat chow mature . Also , its exercise level can be slowly increased if it’s a lay-around cat Visit My Server-space Waster at : http://community.webtv.net/webboxdude/
Thank you Phil, Each of our "girls" have a shelter story and Lou’s condition came as a shock to us. She seemed fine – we have an excellent vet and I attribute her good health to his good care. He is open to everything from traditional medicine to diet, vitamins and homeopathic care. We appreciate your post and are encouraged by your insight to Louella’s condition and treatment. I have only been on this ng for about 6 weeks and I can see you are a trusted and valued member of the group. I live in southern BC, Canada, and our 103 F summers are hard on all of us, but Lou "weathers" them just like the rest of us. Thank you for taking the time to write. She is doing well despite the fact that our pharmacy doesn’t have pet flavouring for this med yet – I am pushing for it for good old Lou – she is a trouper. Carolyn —
>Anybody have any info in this? The websites I have found so far do not make >reassuring reading! >Helen
I agree with you , Helen, what’s out there on "official" links (vetinfo.com, etc) is not all that encouraging. That’s what this group is for. My Loki was diagnosed with dilated CM last October, and it definately freaked me out. But I got a lot of reassurances from people here that it wasn’t the end of the world, and Loki stood a decent chance of living a long normal life, if the medication slowed the progression of the disease. Go to dejanews.com and do a search of this newsgroup for cardiomyopathy, and you should find severl threads. Early detection is key, as others have said in this thread. An ultrasound is going to be your vet’s best tool for a sure diagnosis of the disease (be warned, they are expensive!). I am also a big believer in vitamins (specifically, extra taurine) for this disease. In the words of more than one vet- "Can’t hurt, might help", and it’s very inexpensive. Taurine deficiency is one major cause of dilated cardiomyopathy, so if your cat is at all like mine (doesn’t eat a lot of regular cat food, eats a lot of treats which don’t have taurine), that _might_ be the cause. Since most cat food have extra taurine added to them now, a lot of vets don’t think to ask about that possibility. My vet said that there has also been some evidence (no concrete studies yet, though) that taurine can help reverse or slow CM, even if not caused by a taurine deficiency. At his nine month checkup, they (my vet and the ultrasound vet) were amazed at the results- that there was virtually no progression in the disease. It might be due only to the Atenolol, it might be due to the extra taurine, but I plan on continuing both for a long, long time. Hope your vet has reassuring news for you!! Catherine, Loki and Freya — Generic Lame-O Signature Follows: Matos, Catherine Anne Moseley http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~cm85 Yes, I love being a graduate student! Really! I mean it!
Posted and e-mailed Thank you very much, Catherine (-: I do not yet know for sure if Harpsie has this, his ultrasound and, if necessary, x-rays are scheduled for Wed a.m., fingers crossed!! If he does have it I doubt he has had it for long, his heart rate was too fast on his last two vet visits which were last week and two weeks earlier but it was fine before then. I will check the old Dejanews in the meantime as you suggested. Helen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I agree with you , Helen, what’s out there on "official" links (vetinfo.com, >etc) is not all that encouraging. That’s what this group is for. My Loki >was diagnosed with dilated CM last October, and it definately freaked me >out. But I got a lot of reassurances from people here that it wasn’t the >end of the world, and Loki stood a decent chance of living a long normal >life, if the medication slowed the progression of the disease. Go to >dejanews.com and do a search of this newsgroup for cardiomyopathy, and you >should find severl threads. Early detection is key, as others have said in >this thread. An ultrasound is going to be your vet’s best tool for a sure >diagnosis of the disease (be warned, they are expensive!). I am also a big >believer in vitamins (specifically, extra taurine) for this disease. In >the words of more than one vet- "Can’t hurt, might help", and it’s very >inexpensive. Taurine deficiency is one major cause of dilated cardiomyopathy, >so if your cat is at all like mine (doesn’t eat a lot of regular cat food, >eats a lot of treats which don’t have taurine), that _might_ be the cause. >Since most cat food have extra taurine added to them now, a lot of vets don’t >think to ask about that possibility. My vet said that there has also been some >evidence (no concrete studies yet, though) that taurine can help reverse >or slow CM, even if not caused by a taurine deficiency. At his nine month >checkup, they (my vet and the ultrasound vet) were amazed at the results- >that there was virtually no progression in the disease. It might be due only >to the Atenolol, it might be due to the extra taurine, but I plan on continuing >both for a long, long time. >Hope your vet has reassuring news for you!! >Catherine, Loki and Freya >– >Generic Lame-O Signature Follows: >Matos, Catherine Anne Moseley >http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~cm85 >Yes, I love being a graduate student! Really! I mean it!
>hello there…i was wondering if anyone has had a kitty with this >condition…i >understand it is rather common in the maine coon breed…can anyone tell me >what the symptoms are? thanks a lot, harriet
Some of the symptoms are difficulty breathing, lethargy, weakness, abdominal swelling, but many times the first symptom is sudden death. You can check with your vet and get your MC screened for the disease. Cardiomyopathy is also common in ragdolls, and common in cross-bred longghaired cats. I understand the reason for this isn’t really known. Good luck. Sherry
>Some of the symptoms are difficulty breathing, lethargy, weakness, abdominal >swelling, but many times the first symptom is sudden death. You can check with >your vet and get your MC screened for the disease. Cardiomyopathy is also >common in ragdolls, and common in cross-bred longghaired cats. I understand the >reason for this isn’t really known. Good luck.
I think it’s rather common in all cats. It’s not a rare disease at all, it’s just a disease with little statistics. Since most time it shows no symptoms until the cat dies, you must add all the uncounted deaths: strays, of course. Plus, outdoor cats when they disappear for a couple of days and you find them dead and decide it can have been anything from a car to poison to abuse. All the cats who die all of a sudden and get buried without an authopsy… We feel that it’s most common in breed cats just because breeders are most likely to be wanting to discover why their cat suddenly died. This is just my feeling of course… but I’m ready to bet on it :-/
> hello there…i was wondering if anyone has had a kitty with this condition…i > understand it is rather common in the maine coon breed…can anyone tell me > what the symptoms are? thanks a lot, harriet
My Maine Coon mix was diagnosed two years ago. The vet noticed a heart murmur during his annual exam and sent us to a referral clinic for an ultrasound exam. He has no other symptoms as yet. He’s a good patient: takes his Diltiazem twice a day without a fuss. Follow-up ultrasound exams every six months have shown no worsening of the condition so far. I put in the pills, put in extra love, and take it a day at a time. Roby
> hello there…i was wondering if anyone has had a kitty with this condition…i > understand it is rather common in the maine coon breed…
The true incidence/prevalence is unknown, but a familial association has been documented in Maine Coons and Persians. HCM also appears to be common in Rag Dolls. However, it must be kept in mind that diseases and congential defects are generally better documented in pedigrees than in natural-bred cats. can anyone tell me > what the symptoms are? thanks a lot, harriet
Dyspnea Anorexia Exercise intolerance Vomiting Collapse Hindlimb paresis/paralysis Sudden death Visit my site for more information: http://maxshouse.com/hypertrophic_cardiomyopathy.htm Clinical Manifestations http://maxshouse.com/arterial_thromboembolism.htm HTH, Phil.
thanks a lot for responding everyone…i checked out your site, phil…it’s great…harriet
hello there…i was wondering if anyone has had a kitty with this condition…i understand it is rather common in the maine coon breed…can anyone tell me what the symptoms are? thanks a lot, harriet
> Could you dissolve it in liquid and divide it four ways? Obviously > that wouldn’t work for all drugs, but a water-soluble one ought to > make a pretty consistent mixture. That’s actually what I hope to do > if I ever have to pill mine again — I have had better luck giving > them liquid than pills (as I’ve posted here before). I just don’t > have enough hands for pills. I’d need a minimum of three, but about > eight would be ideal — one to scruff, two to open mouth (one per jaw), > one to insert pill, and the other four to restrain the razor-sharp > implements of destruction so as to protect the first four hands. :-)
whew. i’m lucky. i guess. lennie is quite used to being handled (or man- handled!) because i brush his teeth every day, having only to hold him gently by the head with one hand. the pills are the same. i get him to sit, like you might a dog, and while one hand holds his head (just in front of the ears, on either cheek) the other hand is thumb and middle finger holding pill to be given forefinger pries down lower jaw (my other hand hold his head) he naturally cranks up his face so it’s straight down to the back of his throat. sometimes his tongue is perfectly out of the way and i can literally drop the pill in! my other cat, no way. i would need the two-person approach. — rob
>crushing sounds good, but it’s pitifully little material to divide four >ways.
I wondered, since I didn’t know how big these tablets are to begin with. >an idea along the same lines is to mix the crushed powder with an inert >other material like powdered sugar in order to get sufficient mass for split-
Could you dissolve it in liquid and divide it four ways? Obviously that wouldn’t work for all drugs, but a water-soluble one ought to make a pretty consistent mixture. That’s actually what I hope to do if I ever have to pill mine again — I have had better luck giving them liquid than pills (as I’ve posted here before). I just don’t have enough hands for pills. I’d need a minimum of three, but about eight would be ideal — one to scruff, two to open mouth (one per jaw), one to insert pill, and the other four to restrain the razor-sharp implements of destruction so as to protect the first four hands. :-) (Though really, they’ve relaxed a bit lately — I bathed them the other week with only one minor scratch and no actual bleeding, and nobody climbed up my front higher than my chest before I could get them peeled off [they used to get over my shoulder and take flying leaps from my upper back]. And they’ve suddenly decided they like being brushed, after hating it. So maybe I could do it now. Glad I don’t need to.) >i doubt lennie could be trained to Hoover up lines of sugar/atenolol using >a little tiny straw…
Ha ha. Probably not. :-) Good luck, anyway, to you and everyone dealing with sick cats. — Senior Network Specialist Rice University Networking & Telecommunications This message is my personal opinion. I don’t speak for Rice.
Carone, I have two suggestions, and I hope one of them is possible. First, why does the pharmacy have to make up a month’s supply? Why not buy it in a two-week size increment? Second, maybe you could have the pharmacy crush the pills and divide the appropriate doses up into gel caps. No flavor, easy to swallow, no worries about the medication going bad since it isn’t in a more volatile suspension. Good luck. Laura Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com
> Could you just crush it on purpose, and then divide up the resulting > powder? They even make pill crushers. I have one that’s a crusher…
the splitter i treid was a very good crusher, haha. crushing sounds good, but it’s pitifully little material to divide four ways. i tried doing this using a laboratory scale to get accurate piles, but a 0.01 gram accuracy/resolution was too coarse for results. an idea along the same lines is to mix the crushed powder with an inert other material like powdered sugar in order to get sufficient mass for split- ing by weight… then i’d worry about the consistency of the mix, and there’d still be the problem of dealing with the powder… i doubt lennie could be trained to Hoover up lines of sugar/atenolol using a little tiny straw… — rob
>I guess I am just lucky and got a good pill splitter. I’m sure it will get >dull though. > >Geez, that’s alot of work. I just use a pill splitter. > I’ve tried different pill splitters but they only crushed the darn thing.
Could you just crush it on purpose, and then divide up the resulting powder? They even make pill crushers. I have one that’s a crusher *and* a splitter — the splitter for some things I take occasionally, and the crusher in case I ever have to give the cats a pill again. (And it has a pillbox section, AND you can use the bottom part of the crushing area as a tiny water cup… such a deal, eh? So far I’ve only ever used the splitter.) Note that some pills should NOT be split or crushed, especially sustained release types. Ask vet or pharmacist. Obviously that’s not a problem in this case, just wanted to mention it for general info. — Senior Network Specialist Rice University Networking & Telecommunications This message is my personal opinion. I don’t speak for Rice.
I guess I am just lucky and got a good pill splitter. I’m sure it will get dull though.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Geez, that’s alot of work. I just use a pill splitter. > I’ve tried different pill splitters but they only crushed the darn thing. > Mewdy Blue, by the way, also comes running for his pill. It is so funny to > see him appear from out of nowhere when I shake his pill bottle. I know that > he relates it to the fact that he gets baby food immediately following the > pill to be sure it goes down, but the whole idea is funny! Of course the > other cats have caught on to the whole trick as well, so now I have to give > at least seven other cats baby food every evening. It works out okay, > though, since now if they ever need meds they will get them the same way as > Mewdy Blue! > — > Andrea > aka Cheshire Cat
I only have to pill him once a day. I can’t get the Atenolol at my vet. I got a prescription from the vet and take it to a regular (people) pharmacy for filling. Have you tried that? I think these pills are taken by humans and that is why they have to be quartered. Jean – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >No – In Canada, we can’t get the small pills – they dissolve the huge human >pills and we go to a special pharmacy that flavours it with beef or chicken, but >for some reason, the suspension, which has been working well for two years, is >breaking down into something that is either horrible tasting or dangerous and >she coughs and gags like she has a hair ball at then end of a two week period. >So we throw it out and have a new batch made every two weeks. The suspension is >$16 for a month’s supply, so we can’t keep doing this – so we are looking South >to see what the American vets are rxing and will see if the border towns will >accept the rx of a Canadian vet. >I was corresponding with someone on this ng about two years ago and I thought >that there was a time release Atenolol (or something in the same family of >drugs) that only required once a day pilling or maybe I’ve got it wrong. Do you >only have to pill once a day with the pills and I have to squirt twice a day >with the suspension? Thanks to all who wrote – I’ll print this off and take it >to my vet when I take Louella in for her check up. We are all a bit concerned >about this suspension breaking down because if it’s happening to her, it’s going >to happen for all of his animals that have CDM – we only have one pet dispensing >pharmacy – the others just get the unflavoured med from the regular pharmacies – >we tried that and medication time was a nightmare!!! So, we are on day 3 of the >new batch and are on a count down. >Carone
Willie comes running too and is so jealous of Spot being given "something" pouting. I decided that I would make him feel better so I picked him up and layed him on his side, just like I do Spot. I stuffed a tiny bit of sausage down his throat like a pill. He was not amused. <s> Jean – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Geez, that’s alot of work. I just use a pill splitter. >I’ve tried different pill splitters but they only crushed the darn thing. >Mewdy Blue, by the way, also comes running for his pill. It is so funny to >see him appear from out of nowhere when I shake his pill bottle. I know that >he relates it to the fact that he gets baby food immediately following the >pill to be sure it goes down, but the whole idea is funny! Of course the >other cats have caught on to the whole trick as well, so now I have to give >at least seven other cats baby food every evening. It works out okay, >though, since now if they ever need meds they will get them the same way as >Mewdy Blue! >– >Andrea >aka Cheshire Cat
>Geez, that’s alot of work. I just use a pill splitter.
I’ve tried different pill splitters but they only crushed the darn thing. Mewdy Blue, by the way, also comes running for his pill. It is so funny to see him appear from out of nowhere when I shake his pill bottle. I know that he relates it to the fact that he gets baby food immediately following the pill to be sure it goes down, but the whole idea is funny! Of course the other cats have caught on to the whole trick as well, so now I have to give at least seven other cats baby food every evening. It works out okay, though, since now if they ever need meds they will get them the same way as Mewdy Blue! — Andrea aka Cheshire Cat
Geez, that’s alot of work. I just use a pill splitter. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->… The Atenolol is in pill form and I have to cut it into quarters which is > sort of hard to do since they are very small to begin with and I usually > manage to salvage two or 3 correct size peices from a tablet but they are > very inexpensive so I don’t mind. > across the top with an "X" using an X-Acto razor knife. > i sorta saw back and forth to make a good line both ways. > then i use the edge of the blade to make a nick on the back side of the > pill at the four endpoints of the score marks on the top side, flip the > pill over and score it by sawing back and forth again between the nicks. > then i find i can *snap* the pill into four pretty equal-sized pieces, > even though i lose a bit to the sawing process i think we are OK. > they are cheap, though, as you say, so i don’t mind losing the occasional > pill. i discard any that are obviuosly bad. > i get set and carve up in this fashion a week or two’s worth and store them > in one of those little 7 day pill minder things they make for senior > citizens. > lennie doesn’t exactly come running, but he does cooperate. the best is when > i can open his mouth real wide and drop the pill beyond the "point of no > return" – totally painless and pleasant. most times, though, i have to give > the pill a little help by pushing it down his throat (quickly) with my finger. > i also have just recieved 1000 (!) #3 gel caps – these i load up with the > pill fragments (and his baby aspirin, every third day) for when others > have to give him the pill. it makes it easier to see what you are doing and > to confirm that you have, in fact, done it. > in the beginning i would come across little tiny damp 1/4 Atenolol pills > in lennie’s bedding – what a little sneak! but now i see it go down and > i am happy to know we are doing what we can. > he’s really so good about the pills, i hafta brag on him a bit here. > — rob
> Are you using the liquid because you are not able to pill her?
No – In Canada, we can’t get the small pills – they dissolve the huge human pills and we go to a special pharmacy that flavours it with beef or chicken, but for some reason, the suspension, which has been working well for two years, is breaking down into something that is either horrible tasting or dangerous and she coughs and gags like she has a hair ball at then end of a two week period. So we throw it out and have a new batch made every two weeks. The suspension is $16 for a month’s supply, so we can’t keep doing this – so we are looking South to see what the American vets are rxing and will see if the border towns will accept the rx of a Canadian vet. I was corresponding with someone on this ng about two years ago and I thought that there was a time release Atenolol (or something in the same family of drugs) that only required once a day pilling or maybe I’ve got it wrong. Do you only have to pill once a day with the pills and I have to squirt twice a day with the suspension? Thanks to all who wrote – I’ll print this off and take it to my vet when I take Louella in for her check up. We are all a bit concerned about this suspension breaking down because if it’s happening to her, it’s going to happen for all of his animals that have CDM – we only have one pet dispensing pharmacy – the others just get the unflavoured med from the regular pharmacies – we tried that and medication time was a nightmare!!! So, we are on day 3 of the new batch and are on a count down. Carone
If interested in finding out more about cardizem SR your vet may want to contact Dr. Miller at Texas A+M. Here is a link to his bio. Cardiology Staff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I think the time release tablets you are speaking of are called Dilacor > which is a time released form of diltiazem. Diltiazem is very different > from atenolol. Both meds are used to treat cardiomyopathy in cats but in > some instances atenolol is prefered (eg systolic anterior motion of the > mitral valve (SAM) viewed on ultrasound). Therefore the first thing to > learn is whether it is acceptable to change your cat’s meds to diltiazem. > Dilacor is not available in Canada but there is a time released diltiazem > product which you can get in Canada called Cardizem SR. I recently spoke > to an American veterinary cardiologist – Mathew Miller – who prefers this > formulation over Dilacor. Cardizem SR comes in capsules containing many > small time release beads. The calculated dose is compounded into smaller > capsules or can be sprinkled on the food. Perhaps you can ask your vet > about this possibility. But PLEASE don’t make any changes in meds on your > own. > Dogen > Can any one help? I’ve been off the group for a long while as we were > purring away up here. Louella’s cardiomyopathy is controlled with > Atenolol 5 mg in 60 ml suspension – 1cc twice a day. The suspension > is breaking down every two weeks much to the pharmacist’s dismay (and > ours) and turing into something that is making her gag and throw up. > So we are having it made fresh every two weeks and we can’t go on like > this!! We only have one pharmacy that dispenses the pet flavoured > meds – it was working so well <big sigh> > Our vet is willing to help us get the time release tablets (with the > help of our American friends) and I said I’d save him a step by making > a few inquiries – what are are the American vets rxing – is it > Atenolol? I’ll have to find a pharmacy that is friendly to dispensing > on a Canadian vet’s script pad. We can’t get the timed release > tablets up here and are going to try to find a way to do some "cross > border shopping" – I’m in BC, by the way. Thanks a bunch if you can > help. > Carone
I think the time release tablets you are speaking of are called Dilacor which is a time released form of diltiazem. Diltiazem is very different from atenolol. Both meds are used to treat cardiomyopathy in cats but in some instances atenolol is prefered (eg systolic anterior motion of the mitral valve (SAM) viewed on ultrasound). Therefore the first thing to learn is whether it is acceptable to change your cat’s meds to diltiazem. Dilacor is not available in Canada but there is a time released diltiazem product which you can get in Canada called Cardizem SR. I recently spoke to an American veterinary cardiologist – Mathew Miller – who prefers this formulation over Dilacor. Cardizem SR comes in capsules containing many small time release beads. The calculated dose is compounded into smaller capsules or can be sprinkled on the food. Perhaps you can ask your vet about this possibility. But PLEASE don’t make any changes in meds on your own. Dogen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Can any one help? I’ve been off the group for a long while as we were > purring away up here. Louella’s cardiomyopathy is controlled with > Atenolol 5 mg in 60 ml suspension – 1cc twice a day. The suspension > is breaking down every two weeks much to the pharmacist’s dismay (and > ours) and turing into something that is making her gag and throw up. > So we are having it made fresh every two weeks and we can’t go on like > this!! We only have one pharmacy that dispenses the pet flavoured > meds – it was working so well <big sigh> > Our vet is willing to help us get the time release tablets (with the > help of our American friends) and I said I’d save him a step by making > a few inquiries – what are are the American vets rxing – is it > Atenolol? I’ll have to find a pharmacy that is friendly to dispensing > on a Canadian vet’s script pad. We can’t get the timed release > tablets up here and are going to try to find a way to do some "cross > border shopping" – I’m in BC, by the way. Thanks a bunch if you can > help. > Carone
>… The Atenolol is in pill form and I have to cut it into quarters which is > sort of hard to do since they are very small to begin with and I usually > manage to salvage two or 3 correct size peices from a tablet but they are > very inexpensive so I don’t mind.
across the top with an "X" using an X-Acto razor knife. i sorta saw back and forth to make a good line both ways. then i use the edge of the blade to make a nick on the back side of the pill at the four endpoints of the score marks on the top side, flip the pill over and score it by sawing back and forth again between the nicks. then i find i can *snap* the pill into four pretty equal-sized pieces, even though i lose a bit to the sawing process i think we are OK. they are cheap, though, as you say, so i don’t mind losing the occasional pill. i discard any that are obviuosly bad. i get set and carve up in this fashion a week or two’s worth and store them in one of those little 7 day pill minder things they make for senior citizens. lennie doesn’t exactly come running, but he does cooperate. the best is when i can open his mouth real wide and drop the pill beyond the "point of no return" – totally painless and pleasant. most times, though, i have to give the pill a little help by pushing it down his throat (quickly) with my finger. i also have just recieved 1000 (!) #3 gel caps – these i load up with the pill fragments (and his baby aspirin, every third day) for when others have to give him the pill. it makes it easier to see what you are doing and to confirm that you have, in fact, done it. in the beginning i would come across little tiny damp 1/4 Atenolol pills in lennie’s bedding – what a little sneak! but now i see it go down and i am happy to know we are doing what we can. he’s really so good about the pills, i hafta brag on him a bit here. — rob
My cat is on atenolol for HCM. He takes one quarter of a 25 mg tablet every other day. It was once a day until the condition improved. I do not know if these are time released tablets or not. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Can any one help? I’ve been off the group for a long while as we were > purring away up here. Louella’s cardiomyopathy is controlled with > Atenolol 5 mg in 60 ml suspension – 1cc twice a day. The suspension > is breaking down every two weeks much to the pharmacist’s dismay (and > ours) and turing into something that is making her gag and throw up. > So we are having it made fresh every two weeks and we can’t go on like > this!! We only have one pharmacy that dispenses the pet flavoured > meds – it was working so well <big sigh> > Our vet is willing to help us get the time release tablets (with the > help of our American friends) and I said I’d save him a step by making > a few inquiries – what are are the American vets rxing – is it > Atenolol? I’ll have to find a pharmacy that is friendly to dispensing > on a Canadian vet’s script pad. We can’t get the timed release > tablets up here and are going to try to find a way to do some "cross > border shopping" – I’m in BC, by the way. Thanks a bunch if you can > help. > Carone
My Maine Coon Blue jumps up on the kitchen counter for his pills. I pop it in his mouth and it is gone. He actually gets all excited when he hears the pill bottle! He thinks that when I’m taking my medication, that he should get his too.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Here is what Spot takes for his Cardiomyopathy: > these once a day. Then a baby aspirin every third day. > The Atenolol is in pill form and I have to cut it into quarters which is > sort of hard to do since they are very small to begin with and I usually > manage to salvage two or 3 correct size peices from a tablet but they are > very inexpensive so I don’t mind. The Enacard is another story, it is > almost $1. per pill. > He is doing very well. He comes running to take his medicine and gets it > first thing in the mornings. He gets a tiny bit of Healthy Choice smoked > sausage and that is what makes him come running. > Are you using the liquid because you are not able to pill her? I lay Spot > in my lap on his side, open his mouth and shove the pills in the back of his > mouth quickly. They usually go down and if I can get them back for enough, > he helps and just swallows them. He knows he has to do it and over time has > learned to cooperate. > Good luck. > Jean >Can any one help? I’ve been off the group for a long while as we were >purring away up here. Louella’s cardiomyopathy is controlled with >Atenolol 5 mg in 60 ml suspension – 1cc twice a day. The suspension >is breaking down every two weeks much to the pharmacist’s dismay (and >ours) and turing into something that is making her gag and throw up. >So we are having it made fresh every two weeks and we can’t go on like >this!! We only have one pharmacy that dispenses the pet flavoured >meds – it was working so well <big sigh> >Our vet is willing to help us get the time release tablets (with the >help of our American friends) and I said I’d save him a step by making >a few inquiries – what are are the American vets rxing – is it >Atenolol? I’ll have to find a pharmacy that is friendly to dispensing >on a Canadian vet’s script pad. We can’t get the timed release >tablets up here and are going to try to find a way to do some "cross >border shopping" – I’m in BC, by the way. Thanks a bunch if you can >help. >Carone
Here is what Spot takes for his Cardiomyopathy: these once a day. Then a baby aspirin every third day. The Atenolol is in pill form and I have to cut it into quarters which is sort of hard to do since they are very small to begin with and I usually manage to salvage two or 3 correct size peices from a tablet but they are very inexpensive so I don’t mind. The Enacard is another story, it is almost $1. per pill. He is doing very well. He comes running to take his medicine and gets it first thing in the mornings. He gets a tiny bit of Healthy Choice smoked sausage and that is what makes him come running. Are you using the liquid because you are not able to pill her? I lay Spot in my lap on his side, open his mouth and shove the pills in the back of his mouth quickly. They usually go down and if I can get them back for enough, he helps and just swallows them. He knows he has to do it and over time has learned to cooperate. Good luck. Jean – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Can any one help? I’ve been off the group for a long while as we were >purring away up here. Louella’s cardiomyopathy is controlled with >Atenolol 5 mg in 60 ml suspension – 1cc twice a day. The suspension >is breaking down every two weeks much to the pharmacist’s dismay (and >ours) and turing into something that is making her gag and throw up. >So we are having it made fresh every two weeks and we can’t go on like >this!! We only have one pharmacy that dispenses the pet flavoured >meds – it was working so well <big sigh> >Our vet is willing to help us get the time release tablets (with the >help of our American friends) and I said I’d save him a step by making >a few inquiries – what are are the American vets rxing – is it >Atenolol? I’ll have to find a pharmacy that is friendly to dispensing >on a Canadian vet’s script pad. We can’t get the timed release >tablets up here and are going to try to find a way to do some "cross >border shopping" – I’m in BC, by the way. Thanks a bunch if you can >help. >Carone
Can any one help? I’ve been off the group for a long while as we were purring away up here. Louella’s cardiomyopathy is controlled with Atenolol 5 mg in 60 ml suspension – 1cc twice a day. The suspension is breaking down every two weeks much to the pharmacist’s dismay (and ours) and turing into something that is making her gag and throw up. So we are having it made fresh every two weeks and we can’t go on like this!! We only have one pharmacy that dispenses the pet flavoured meds – it was working so well <big sigh> Our vet is willing to help us get the time release tablets (with the help of our American friends) and I said I’d save him a step by making a few inquiries – what are are the American vets rxing – is it Atenolol? I’ll have to find a pharmacy that is friendly to dispensing on a Canadian vet’s script pad. We can’t get the timed release tablets up here and are going to try to find a way to do some "cross border shopping" – I’m in BC, by the way. Thanks a bunch if you can help. Carone
Phil, doesn’t hyperthyroidism frequently occur with cardiomyopathy also? I seem to recall reading this somewhere. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Thank you for the info. I don’t yet know if he has it, vet is about to run > tests because on his last two visits two weeks apart he had a very fast > heart rate. He is Persian, not Maine Coone and reason i took him to vet > was > because he is rapidly losing weight, down to 8lbs from 10 normally. I am > hoping he doesn’t have it! – but all other tests done to date are > negative. > Helen > What you described could also be hyperthyroidism. Has your vet checked your > cat’s T-4 (hormone) levels? If not, find a new vet. > Hyperthyroidism is a serious and relatively common endocrine disorder > resulting from excess in thyroid hormone in the circulation. Most commonly, > this condition is caused by a functional (hormone producing) enlargement of > the thyroid gland(s) or a hormone producing thyroid tumor. Fortunately, the > more serious thyroid carcinoma rarely produces this condition in cats. In > about 70% of cats, both thyroid glands will be enlarged and/or contain tumor > tissue. The other 30% will have one-sided involvement. As to how or why > these enlargements or tumors appear is uncertain, but this condition has > been seen more frequently in the last two decades. (Carcinogenic in pet > foods could be a possibly) > Because thyroid hormone exerts a profound effect upon the metabolic rate of > all cells in the body, cats with this condition are literally running at > "top speed" all the time, which is ultimately quite detrimental to the > health of the cat. Clinical signs include weight loss, an increased if not > ravenous appetite, vomiting which may be intermittent, increased thirst and > urination, increased activity levels, hyperactivity, restlessness, diarrhea, > an unkept and possibly matted haircoat and a rapid, pounding heartbeat. As > the disease progresses and the body literally becomes worn down, further > signs will include weakness, panting, trouble breathing, increased stool > output and loss of appetite. > Hyperthyroidism is easily treated and in 90% of cases cured with one > treatment of I-131 (radioactive iodine). This treatment is non invasive (no > surgery, only a mild sedative) If you would like to learn more about this > disease, symptoms, and the treatment, visit my site: > http://maxshouse.com in the Endocrine System section. > Phil. > — > "Cats have no masters…just friends" > Good cat health stuff: http://maxshouse.com
– Home Page: http://www.spiritrealm.com/summer/
>Catherine, >You may wish to send a letter requesting information on DCM to Dr. V. Luis >Fuentes, Royal School of Veterinary Studies, Summerhall Square, Summerhall, >Edinburgh EH9 1QH UK. He has done extensive research in DCM and Taurine >therapy which has radically altered the progress of DCM. He has reported >many cats now make a complete recovery after supplementation.
Thanks so much for that information! I’ll see what I can find in the way of research papers, then write him for more information. I had talked to my sister’s father-in-law-to-be, who is a cardiologist, who gave me a little generic information about the disease, but nothing specific to cats. That is very exciting news! Catherine, Loki and Freya — Generic Lame-O Signature Follows: Matos, Catherine Anne Moseley http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~cm85 Yes, I love being a graduate student! Really! I mean it!
Thanks for that clarification, Phil. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Phil, doesn’t hyperthyroidism frequently occur with cardiomyopathy also? > I seem > to recall reading this somewhere. > Not necessarily. Some vets believe hyperthyroidism can contribute to the > cause of HCM, but that hasn’t been proven either way. Some of the symptoms > of HCM are very similar to hyperthyroidism – which is why its sometimes > misdiagnosed. Its not uncommon for a cat to have both diseases at the same > time, but one is not a symptom or result of the other, although its not hard > to understand how hyperthyroidism can possibly contribute to HCM – the cat’s > systems running at top speed. > Any irregular heartbeat, even a murmur should be tested by ultrasounds and > T-4 levels. > Phil. > — > "I have found my love of Cats most helpful in > understanding women" –John Simon > Cat Healthcare, First Aid, Poisons & Toxins & more: > http://maxshouse.com > > > Thank you for the info. I don’t yet know if he has it, vet is about to > run > > > tests because on his last two visits two weeks apart he had a very > fast > > > heart rate. He is Persian, not Maine Coone and reason i took him to > vet > > was > > > because he is rapidly losing weight, down to 8lbs from 10 normally. I > am > > > hoping he doesn’t have it! – but all other tests done to date are > > negative. > > > Helen > > What you described could also be hyperthyroidism. Has your vet checked > your > > cat’s T-4 (hormone) levels? If not, find a new vet. > > Hyperthyroidism is a serious and relatively common endocrine disorder > > resulting from excess in thyroid hormone in the circulation. Most > commonly, > > this condition is caused by a functional (hormone producing) enlargement > of > > the thyroid gland(s) or a hormone producing thyroid tumor. Fortunately, > the > > more serious thyroid carcinoma rarely produces this condition in cats. > In > > about 70% of cats, both thyroid glands will be enlarged and/or contain > tumor > > tissue. The other 30% will have one-sided involvement. As to how or why > > these enlargements or tumors appear is uncertain, but this condition has > > been seen more frequently in the last two decades. (Carcinogenic in pet > > foods could be a possibly) > > Because thyroid hormone exerts a profound effect upon the metabolic rate > of > > all cells in the body, cats with this condition are literally running at > > "top speed" all the time, which is ultimately quite detrimental to the > > health of the cat. Clinical signs include weight loss, an increased if > not > > ravenous appetite, vomiting which may be intermittent, increased thirst > and > > urination, increased activity levels, hyperactivity, restlessness, > diarrhea, > > an unkept and possibly matted haircoat and a rapid, pounding heartbeat. > As > > the disease progresses and the body literally becomes worn down, further > > signs will include weakness, panting, trouble breathing, increased stool > > output and loss of appetite. > > Hyperthyroidism is easily treated and in 90% of cases cured with one > > treatment of I-131 (radioactive iodine). This treatment is non invasive > (no > > surgery, only a mild sedative) If you would like to learn more about > this > > disease, symptoms, and the treatment, visit my site: > > http://maxshouse.com in the Endocrine System section. > > Phil. > > — > > "Cats have no masters…just friends" > > Good cat health stuff: http://maxshouse.com > — > Home Page: http://www.spiritrealm.com/summer/
– Home Page: http://www.spiritrealm.com/summer/
> Thank you very much, Catherine (-: I do not yet know for sure if Harpsie has > this, his ultrasound and, if necessary, x-rays are scheduled for Wed a.m., > fingers crossed!!
Fingers & furry toes are being crossed … & prayers are being said. Let us knwo what you find out. > Helen
– Jonathan Rosenberg 908/730-9171 [voice] 908/730-5920 [fax]
Thank you for the info. (-: Harpsie is under-active and off his food – he eats a quarter of it, then wanders off as if it is all too much effort. This is very unusual for him, in fact it has never happened before, he has always had a healthy appetite. We have changed foods to no avail. Despite this he seems quite happy, which is good because he spent most of the first half of this year pining for his sister who died seven months ago. The vet has done extensive tests including thyroid and everything is normal apart from the heartrate and weightloss/lethargy, and yesterday he puked a lot. I do however have another, stray cat I took in a month ago after he had an operation for hyperactive thyroid so the information you provided was interesting. Thank you for taking the time to respond to me. Helen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >What you described could also be hyperthyroidism. Has your vet checked your >cat’s T-4 (hormone) levels? If not, find a new vet. >Hyperthyroidism is a serious and relatively common endocrine disorder >resulting from excess in thyroid hormone in the circulation. Most commonly, >this condition is caused by a functional (hormone producing) enlargement of >the thyroid gland(s) or a hormone producing thyroid tumor. Fortunately, the >more serious thyroid carcinoma rarely produces this condition in cats. In >about 70% of cats, both thyroid glands will be enlarged and/or contain tumor >tissue. The other 30% will have one-sided involvement. As to how or why >these enlargements or tumors appear is uncertain, but this condition has >been seen more frequently in the last two decades. (Carcinogenic in pet >foods could be a possibly) >Because thyroid hormone exerts a profound effect upon the metabolic rate of >all cells in the body, cats with this condition are literally running at >"top speed" all the time, which is ultimately quite detrimental to the >health of the cat. Clinical signs include weight loss, an increased if not >ravenous appetite, vomiting which may be intermittent, increased thirst and >urination, increased activity levels, hyperactivity, restlessness, diarrhea, >an unkept and possibly matted haircoat and a rapid, pounding heartbeat. As >the disease progresses and the body literally becomes worn down, further >signs will include weakness, panting, trouble breathing, increased stool >output and loss of appetite. >Hyperthyroidism is easily treated and in 90% of cases cured with one >treatment of I-131 (radioactive iodine). This treatment is non invasive (no >surgery, only a mild sedative) If you would like to learn more about this >disease, symptoms, and the treatment, visit my site: >http://maxshouse.com in the Endocrine System section. >Phil. >– >"Cats have no masters…just friends" > Good cat health stuff: http://maxshouse.com
Anybody have any info in this? The websites I have found so far do not make reassuring reading! Helen _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ "The question is not, can they reason? Nor, can they talk? But, can they suffer?" (Jeremy Bentham, 1748-1832)
Feline cardiomyopathy is usually diagnosed too late for much to be done. When we lost our first cat of a pair of twins 6 years ago next month the Dr diagnosed her sister She is still going strong with little or no problem except she is slowing down more each year. She is now 15. Cindy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Anybody have any info in this? The websites I have found so far do not make >reassuring reading! >Helen >_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ >_ _ _ >"The question is not, can they reason? Nor, can they talk? But, can they >suffer?" (Jeremy Bentham, 1748-1832)
My cat, Louella (one of three and the eldest at 6 years) developed CM about 2 years ago – the vet found it at her yearly exam. The vet did an ultrasound and we watched her as she didn’t have symptoms other than a train running in her chest. Then we did another ultrasound and could see the thickening in the heart muscle. He put her on Atenolol a year ago – (5mg/ml) and we give her a 1 ml squirt twice a day – I’m told there is a timed release product, but this works for us as she hates to be pilled. He has cats in has practice that are 16 years old and symptom free. The links paint a grim picture, but we aren’t reading those anymore. She’s doing great and we’re building on that. She has exercise intolerance in the heat, but other than that, she roars around like the others. Our vet said that he can’t prove it, but he thinks this med reverses the disease. I have received emails from so many kind people about how to improve Lou’s diet with vitamins, minerals etc. We’ve been adding flax seed oil for omega 3 acids and vitamin E to start - partly because I can’t get the products that some wonderful people have suggested as I live in Canada. I always add things slowly – never know what they are reacting to!! Good luck – if you need support, email me!! Carolyn —
This is inflammation of the heart wall due to vascular damage . Does you cat have it ? Is it an older cat . It is herditary in maine coons . Obese cats can get it too , if your cat is fat , then try science diet or cat chow mature . Also , its exercise level can be slowly increased if it’s a lay-around cat Visit My Server-space Waster at : http://community.webtv.net/webboxdude/
Thank you for the info. I don’t yet know if he has it, vet is about to run tests because on his last two visits two weeks apart he had a very fast heart rate. He is Persian, not Maine Coone and reason i took him to vet was because he is rapidly losing weight, down to 8lbs from 10 normally. I am hoping he doesn’t have it! – but all other tests done to date are negative. Helen
This is inflammation of the heart wall due to vascular damage . Does you cat have it ? Is it an older cat . It is herditary in maine coons . Obese cats can get it too , if your cat is fat , then try science diet or cat chow mature . Also , its exercise level can be slowly increased if it’s a lay-around cat Visit My Server-space Waster at : http://community.webtv.net/webboxdude/
Thank you Phil, Each of our "girls" have a shelter story and Lou’s condition came as a shock to us. She seemed fine – we have an excellent vet and I attribute her good health to his good care. He is open to everything from traditional medicine to diet, vitamins and homeopathic care. We appreciate your post and are encouraged by your insight to Louella’s condition and treatment. I have only been on this ng for about 6 weeks and I can see you are a trusted and valued member of the group. I live in southern BC, Canada, and our 103 F summers are hard on all of us, but Lou "weathers" them just like the rest of us. Thank you for taking the time to write. She is doing well despite the fact that our pharmacy doesn’t have pet flavouring for this med yet – I am pushing for it for good old Lou – she is a trouper. Carolyn —
>Anybody have any info in this? The websites I have found so far do not make >reassuring reading! >Helen
I agree with you , Helen, what’s out there on "official" links (vetinfo.com, etc) is not all that encouraging. That’s what this group is for. My Loki was diagnosed with dilated CM last October, and it definately freaked me out. But I got a lot of reassurances from people here that it wasn’t the end of the world, and Loki stood a decent chance of living a long normal life, if the medication slowed the progression of the disease. Go to dejanews.com and do a search of this newsgroup for cardiomyopathy, and you should find severl threads. Early detection is key, as others have said in this thread. An ultrasound is going to be your vet’s best tool for a sure diagnosis of the disease (be warned, they are expensive!). I am also a big believer in vitamins (specifically, extra taurine) for this disease. In the words of more than one vet- "Can’t hurt, might help", and it’s very inexpensive. Taurine deficiency is one major cause of dilated cardiomyopathy, so if your cat is at all like mine (doesn’t eat a lot of regular cat food, eats a lot of treats which don’t have taurine), that _might_ be the cause. Since most cat food have extra taurine added to them now, a lot of vets don’t think to ask about that possibility. My vet said that there has also been some evidence (no concrete studies yet, though) that taurine can help reverse or slow CM, even if not caused by a taurine deficiency. At his nine month checkup, they (my vet and the ultrasound vet) were amazed at the results- that there was virtually no progression in the disease. It might be due only to the Atenolol, it might be due to the extra taurine, but I plan on continuing both for a long, long time. Hope your vet has reassuring news for you!! Catherine, Loki and Freya — Generic Lame-O Signature Follows: Matos, Catherine Anne Moseley http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~cm85 Yes, I love being a graduate student! Really! I mean it!
Posted and e-mailed Thank you very much, Catherine (-: I do not yet know for sure if Harpsie has this, his ultrasound and, if necessary, x-rays are scheduled for Wed a.m., fingers crossed!! If he does have it I doubt he has had it for long, his heart rate was too fast on his last two vet visits which were last week and two weeks earlier but it was fine before then. I will check the old Dejanews in the meantime as you suggested. Helen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I agree with you , Helen, what’s out there on "official" links (vetinfo.com, >etc) is not all that encouraging. That’s what this group is for. My Loki >was diagnosed with dilated CM last October, and it definately freaked me >out. But I got a lot of reassurances from people here that it wasn’t the >end of the world, and Loki stood a decent chance of living a long normal >life, if the medication slowed the progression of the disease. Go to >dejanews.com and do a search of this newsgroup for cardiomyopathy, and you >should find severl threads. Early detection is key, as others have said in >this thread. An ultrasound is going to be your vet’s best tool for a sure >diagnosis of the disease (be warned, they are expensive!). I am also a big >believer in vitamins (specifically, extra taurine) for this disease. In >the words of more than one vet- "Can’t hurt, might help", and it’s very >inexpensive. Taurine deficiency is one major cause of dilated cardiomyopathy, >so if your cat is at all like mine (doesn’t eat a lot of regular cat food, >eats a lot of treats which don’t have taurine), that _might_ be the cause. >Since most cat food have extra taurine added to them now, a lot of vets don’t >think to ask about that possibility. My vet said that there has also been some >evidence (no concrete studies yet, though) that taurine can help reverse >or slow CM, even if not caused by a taurine deficiency. At his nine month >checkup, they (my vet and the ultrasound vet) were amazed at the results- >that there was virtually no progression in the disease. It might be due only >to the Atenolol, it might be due to the extra taurine, but I plan on continuing >both for a long, long time. >Hope your vet has reassuring news for you!! >Catherine, Loki and Freya >– >Generic Lame-O Signature Follows: >Matos, Catherine Anne Moseley >http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~cm85 >Yes, I love being a graduate student! Really! I mean it!
>hello there…i was wondering if anyone has had a kitty with this >condition…i >understand it is rather common in the maine coon breed…can anyone tell me >what the symptoms are? thanks a lot, harriet
Some of the symptoms are difficulty breathing, lethargy, weakness, abdominal swelling, but many times the first symptom is sudden death. You can check with your vet and get your MC screened for the disease. Cardiomyopathy is also common in ragdolls, and common in cross-bred longghaired cats. I understand the reason for this isn’t really known. Good luck. Sherry
>Some of the symptoms are difficulty breathing, lethargy, weakness, abdominal >swelling, but many times the first symptom is sudden death. You can check with >your vet and get your MC screened for the disease. Cardiomyopathy is also >common in ragdolls, and common in cross-bred longghaired cats. I understand the >reason for this isn’t really known. Good luck.
I think it’s rather common in all cats. It’s not a rare disease at all, it’s just a disease with little statistics. Since most time it shows no symptoms until the cat dies, you must add all the uncounted deaths: strays, of course. Plus, outdoor cats when they disappear for a couple of days and you find them dead and decide it can have been anything from a car to poison to abuse. All the cats who die all of a sudden and get buried without an authopsy… We feel that it’s most common in breed cats just because breeders are most likely to be wanting to discover why their cat suddenly died. This is just my feeling of course… but I’m ready to bet on it :-/
> hello there…i was wondering if anyone has had a kitty with this condition…i > understand it is rather common in the maine coon breed…can anyone tell me > what the symptoms are? thanks a lot, harriet
My Maine Coon mix was diagnosed two years ago. The vet noticed a heart murmur during his annual exam and sent us to a referral clinic for an ultrasound exam. He has no other symptoms as yet. He’s a good patient: takes his Diltiazem twice a day without a fuss. Follow-up ultrasound exams every six months have shown no worsening of the condition so far. I put in the pills, put in extra love, and take it a day at a time. Roby
> hello there…i was wondering if anyone has had a kitty with this condition…i > understand it is rather common in the maine coon breed…
The true incidence/prevalence is unknown, but a familial association has been documented in Maine Coons and Persians. HCM also appears to be common in Rag Dolls. However, it must be kept in mind that diseases and congential defects are generally better documented in pedigrees than in natural-bred cats. can anyone tell me > what the symptoms are? thanks a lot, harriet
Dyspnea Anorexia Exercise intolerance Vomiting Collapse Hindlimb paresis/paralysis Sudden death Visit my site for more information: http://maxshouse.com/hypertrophic_cardiomyopathy.htm Clinical Manifestations http://maxshouse.com/arterial_thromboembolism.htm HTH, Phil.
thanks a lot for responding everyone…i checked out your site, phil…it’s great…harriet
hello there…i was wondering if anyone has had a kitty with this condition…i understand it is rather common in the maine coon breed…can anyone tell me what the symptoms are? thanks a lot, harriet
> Could you dissolve it in liquid and divide it four ways? Obviously > that wouldn’t work for all drugs, but a water-soluble one ought to > make a pretty consistent mixture. That’s actually what I hope to do > if I ever have to pill mine again — I have had better luck giving > them liquid than pills (as I’ve posted here before). I just don’t > have enough hands for pills. I’d need a minimum of three, but about > eight would be ideal — one to scruff, two to open mouth (one per jaw), > one to insert pill, and the other four to restrain the razor-sharp > implements of destruction so as to protect the first four hands. :-)
whew. i’m lucky. i guess. lennie is quite used to being handled (or man- handled!) because i brush his teeth every day, having only to hold him gently by the head with one hand. the pills are the same. i get him to sit, like you might a dog, and while one hand holds his head (just in front of the ears, on either cheek) the other hand is thumb and middle finger holding pill to be given forefinger pries down lower jaw (my other hand hold his head) he naturally cranks up his face so it’s straight down to the back of his throat. sometimes his tongue is perfectly out of the way and i can literally drop the pill in! my other cat, no way. i would need the two-person approach. — rob
>crushing sounds good, but it’s pitifully little material to divide four >ways.
I wondered, since I didn’t know how big these tablets are to begin with. >an idea along the same lines is to mix the crushed powder with an inert >other material like powdered sugar in order to get sufficient mass for split-
Could you dissolve it in liquid and divide it four ways? Obviously that wouldn’t work for all drugs, but a water-soluble one ought to make a pretty consistent mixture. That’s actually what I hope to do if I ever have to pill mine again — I have had better luck giving them liquid than pills (as I’ve posted here before). I just don’t have enough hands for pills. I’d need a minimum of three, but about eight would be ideal — one to scruff, two to open mouth (one per jaw), one to insert pill, and the other four to restrain the razor-sharp implements of destruction so as to protect the first four hands. :-) (Though really, they’ve relaxed a bit lately — I bathed them the other week with only one minor scratch and no actual bleeding, and nobody climbed up my front higher than my chest before I could get them peeled off [they used to get over my shoulder and take flying leaps from my upper back]. And they’ve suddenly decided they like being brushed, after hating it. So maybe I could do it now. Glad I don’t need to.) >i doubt lennie could be trained to Hoover up lines of sugar/atenolol using >a little tiny straw…
Ha ha. Probably not. :-) Good luck, anyway, to you and everyone dealing with sick cats. — Senior Network Specialist Rice University Networking & Telecommunications This message is my personal opinion. I don’t speak for Rice.
Carone, I have two suggestions, and I hope one of them is possible. First, why does the pharmacy have to make up a month’s supply? Why not buy it in a two-week size increment? Second, maybe you could have the pharmacy crush the pills and divide the appropriate doses up into gel caps. No flavor, easy to swallow, no worries about the medication going bad since it isn’t in a more volatile suspension. Good luck. Laura Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com
> Could you just crush it on purpose, and then divide up the resulting > powder? They even make pill crushers. I have one that’s a crusher…
the splitter i treid was a very good crusher, haha. crushing sounds good, but it’s pitifully little material to divide four ways. i tried doing this using a laboratory scale to get accurate piles, but a 0.01 gram accuracy/resolution was too coarse for results. an idea along the same lines is to mix the crushed powder with an inert other material like powdered sugar in order to get sufficient mass for split- ing by weight… then i’d worry about the consistency of the mix, and there’d still be the problem of dealing with the powder… i doubt lennie could be trained to Hoover up lines of sugar/atenolol using a little tiny straw… — rob
>I guess I am just lucky and got a good pill splitter. I’m sure it will get >dull though. > >Geez, that’s alot of work. I just use a pill splitter. > I’ve tried different pill splitters but they only crushed the darn thing.
Could you just crush it on purpose, and then divide up the resulting powder? They even make pill crushers. I have one that’s a crusher *and* a splitter — the splitter for some things I take occasionally, and the crusher in case I ever have to give the cats a pill again. (And it has a pillbox section, AND you can use the bottom part of the crushing area as a tiny water cup… such a deal, eh? So far I’ve only ever used the splitter.) Note that some pills should NOT be split or crushed, especially sustained release types. Ask vet or pharmacist. Obviously that’s not a problem in this case, just wanted to mention it for general info. — Senior Network Specialist Rice University Networking & Telecommunications This message is my personal opinion. I don’t speak for Rice.
I guess I am just lucky and got a good pill splitter. I’m sure it will get dull though.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Geez, that’s alot of work. I just use a pill splitter. > I’ve tried different pill splitters but they only crushed the darn thing. > Mewdy Blue, by the way, also comes running for his pill. It is so funny to > see him appear from out of nowhere when I shake his pill bottle. I know that > he relates it to the fact that he gets baby food immediately following the > pill to be sure it goes down, but the whole idea is funny! Of course the > other cats have caught on to the whole trick as well, so now I have to give > at least seven other cats baby food every evening. It works out okay, > though, since now if they ever need meds they will get them the same way as > Mewdy Blue! > — > Andrea > aka Cheshire Cat
I only have to pill him once a day. I can’t get the Atenolol at my vet. I got a prescription from the vet and take it to a regular (people) pharmacy for filling. Have you tried that? I think these pills are taken by humans and that is why they have to be quartered. Jean – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >No – In Canada, we can’t get the small pills – they dissolve the huge human >pills and we go to a special pharmacy that flavours it with beef or chicken, but >for some reason, the suspension, which has been working well for two years, is >breaking down into something that is either horrible tasting or dangerous and >she coughs and gags like she has a hair ball at then end of a two week period. >So we throw it out and have a new batch made every two weeks. The suspension is >$16 for a month’s supply, so we can’t keep doing this – so we are looking South >to see what the American vets are rxing and will see if the border towns will >accept the rx of a Canadian vet. >I was corresponding with someone on this ng about two years ago and I thought >that there was a time release Atenolol (or something in the same family of >drugs) that only required once a day pilling or maybe I’ve got it wrong. Do you >only have to pill once a day with the pills and I have to squirt twice a day >with the suspension? Thanks to all who wrote – I’ll print this off and take it >to my vet when I take Louella in for her check up. We are all a bit concerned >about this suspension breaking down because if it’s happening to her, it’s going >to happen for all of his animals that have CDM – we only have one pet dispensing >pharmacy – the others just get the unflavoured med from the regular pharmacies – >we tried that and medication time was a nightmare!!! So, we are on day 3 of the >new batch and are on a count down. >Carone
Willie comes running too and is so jealous of Spot being given "something" pouting. I decided that I would make him feel better so I picked him up and layed him on his side, just like I do Spot. I stuffed a tiny bit of sausage down his throat like a pill. He was not amused. <s> Jean – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Geez, that’s alot of work. I just use a pill splitter. >I’ve tried different pill splitters but they only crushed the darn thing. >Mewdy Blue, by the way, also comes running for his pill. It is so funny to >see him appear from out of nowhere when I shake his pill bottle. I know that >he relates it to the fact that he gets baby food immediately following the >pill to be sure it goes down, but the whole idea is funny! Of course the >other cats have caught on to the whole trick as well, so now I have to give >at least seven other cats baby food every evening. It works out okay, >though, since now if they ever need meds they will get them the same way as >Mewdy Blue! >– >Andrea >aka Cheshire Cat
>Geez, that’s alot of work. I just use a pill splitter.
I’ve tried different pill splitters but they only crushed the darn thing. Mewdy Blue, by the way, also comes running for his pill. It is so funny to see him appear from out of nowhere when I shake his pill bottle. I know that he relates it to the fact that he gets baby food immediately following the pill to be sure it goes down, but the whole idea is funny! Of course the other cats have caught on to the whole trick as well, so now I have to give at least seven other cats baby food every evening. It works out okay, though, since now if they ever need meds they will get them the same way as Mewdy Blue! — Andrea aka Cheshire Cat
Geez, that’s alot of work. I just use a pill splitter. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->… The Atenolol is in pill form and I have to cut it into quarters which is > sort of hard to do since they are very small to begin with and I usually > manage to salvage two or 3 correct size peices from a tablet but they are > very inexpensive so I don’t mind. > across the top with an "X" using an X-Acto razor knife. > i sorta saw back and forth to make a good line both ways. > then i use the edge of the blade to make a nick on the back side of the > pill at the four endpoints of the score marks on the top side, flip the > pill over and score it by sawing back and forth again between the nicks. > then i find i can *snap* the pill into four pretty equal-sized pieces, > even though i lose a bit to the sawing process i think we are OK. > they are cheap, though, as you say, so i don’t mind losing the occasional > pill. i discard any that are obviuosly bad. > i get set and carve up in this fashion a week or two’s worth and store them > in one of those little 7 day pill minder things they make for senior > citizens. > lennie doesn’t exactly come running, but he does cooperate. the best is when > i can open his mouth real wide and drop the pill beyond the "point of no > return" – totally painless and pleasant. most times, though, i have to give > the pill a little help by pushing it down his throat (quickly) with my finger. > i also have just recieved 1000 (!) #3 gel caps – these i load up with the > pill fragments (and his baby aspirin, every third day) for when others > have to give him the pill. it makes it easier to see what you are doing and > to confirm that you have, in fact, done it. > in the beginning i would come across little tiny damp 1/4 Atenolol pills > in lennie’s bedding – what a little sneak! but now i see it go down and > i am happy to know we are doing what we can. > he’s really so good about the pills, i hafta brag on him a bit here. > — rob
> Are you using the liquid because you are not able to pill her?
No – In Canada, we can’t get the small pills – they dissolve the huge human pills and we go to a special pharmacy that flavours it with beef or chicken, but for some reason, the suspension, which has been working well for two years, is breaking down into something that is either horrible tasting or dangerous and she coughs and gags like she has a hair ball at then end of a two week period. So we throw it out and have a new batch made every two weeks. The suspension is $16 for a month’s supply, so we can’t keep doing this – so we are looking South to see what the American vets are rxing and will see if the border towns will accept the rx of a Canadian vet. I was corresponding with someone on this ng about two years ago and I thought that there was a time release Atenolol (or something in the same family of drugs) that only required once a day pilling or maybe I’ve got it wrong. Do you only have to pill once a day with the pills and I have to squirt twice a day with the suspension? Thanks to all who wrote – I’ll print this off and take it to my vet when I take Louella in for her check up. We are all a bit concerned about this suspension breaking down because if it’s happening to her, it’s going to happen for all of his animals that have CDM – we only have one pet dispensing pharmacy – the others just get the unflavoured med from the regular pharmacies – we tried that and medication time was a nightmare!!! So, we are on day 3 of the new batch and are on a count down. Carone
If interested in finding out more about cardizem SR your vet may want to contact Dr. Miller at Texas A+M. Here is a link to his bio. Cardiology Staff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I think the time release tablets you are speaking of are called Dilacor > which is a time released form of diltiazem. Diltiazem is very different > from atenolol. Both meds are used to treat cardiomyopathy in cats but in > some instances atenolol is prefered (eg systolic anterior motion of the > mitral valve (SAM) viewed on ultrasound). Therefore the first thing to > learn is whether it is acceptable to change your cat’s meds to diltiazem. > Dilacor is not available in Canada but there is a time released diltiazem > product which you can get in Canada called Cardizem SR. I recently spoke > to an American veterinary cardiologist – Mathew Miller – who prefers this > formulation over Dilacor. Cardizem SR comes in capsules containing many > small time release beads. The calculated dose is compounded into smaller > capsules or can be sprinkled on the food. Perhaps you can ask your vet > about this possibility. But PLEASE don’t make any changes in meds on your > own. > Dogen > Can any one help? I’ve been off the group for a long while as we were > purring away up here. Louella’s cardiomyopathy is controlled with > Atenolol 5 mg in 60 ml suspension – 1cc twice a day. The suspension > is breaking down every two weeks much to the pharmacist’s dismay (and > ours) and turing into something that is making her gag and throw up. > So we are having it made fresh every two weeks and we can’t go on like > this!! We only have one pharmacy that dispenses the pet flavoured > meds – it was working so well <big sigh> > Our vet is willing to help us get the time release tablets (with the > help of our American friends) and I said I’d save him a step by making > a few inquiries – what are are the American vets rxing – is it > Atenolol? I’ll have to find a pharmacy that is friendly to dispensing > on a Canadian vet’s script pad. We can’t get the timed release > tablets up here and are going to try to find a way to do some "cross > border shopping" – I’m in BC, by the way. Thanks a bunch if you can > help. > Carone
I think the time release tablets you are speaking of are called Dilacor which is a time released form of diltiazem. Diltiazem is very different from atenolol. Both meds are used to treat cardiomyopathy in cats but in some instances atenolol is prefered (eg systolic anterior motion of the mitral valve (SAM) viewed on ultrasound). Therefore the first thing to learn is whether it is acceptable to change your cat’s meds to diltiazem. Dilacor is not available in Canada but there is a time released diltiazem product which you can get in Canada called Cardizem SR. I recently spoke to an American veterinary cardiologist – Mathew Miller – who prefers this formulation over Dilacor. Cardizem SR comes in capsules containing many small time release beads. The calculated dose is compounded into smaller capsules or can be sprinkled on the food. Perhaps you can ask your vet about this possibility. But PLEASE don’t make any changes in meds on your own. Dogen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Can any one help? I’ve been off the group for a long while as we were > purring away up here. Louella’s cardiomyopathy is controlled with > Atenolol 5 mg in 60 ml suspension – 1cc twice a day. The suspension > is breaking down every two weeks much to the pharmacist’s dismay (and > ours) and turing into something that is making her gag and throw up. > So we are having it made fresh every two weeks and we can’t go on like > this!! We only have one pharmacy that dispenses the pet flavoured > meds – it was working so well <big sigh> > Our vet is willing to help us get the time release tablets (with the > help of our American friends) and I said I’d save him a step by making > a few inquiries – what are are the American vets rxing – is it > Atenolol? I’ll have to find a pharmacy that is friendly to dispensing > on a Canadian vet’s script pad. We can’t get the timed release > tablets up here and are going to try to find a way to do some "cross > border shopping" – I’m in BC, by the way. Thanks a bunch if you can > help. > Carone
>… The Atenolol is in pill form and I have to cut it into quarters which is > sort of hard to do since they are very small to begin with and I usually > manage to salvage two or 3 correct size peices from a tablet but they are > very inexpensive so I don’t mind.
across the top with an "X" using an X-Acto razor knife. i sorta saw back and forth to make a good line both ways. then i use the edge of the blade to make a nick on the back side of the pill at the four endpoints of the score marks on the top side, flip the pill over and score it by sawing back and forth again between the nicks. then i find i can *snap* the pill into four pretty equal-sized pieces, even though i lose a bit to the sawing process i think we are OK. they are cheap, though, as you say, so i don’t mind losing the occasional pill. i discard any that are obviuosly bad. i get set and carve up in this fashion a week or two’s worth and store them in one of those little 7 day pill minder things they make for senior citizens. lennie doesn’t exactly come running, but he does cooperate. the best is when i can open his mouth real wide and drop the pill beyond the "point of no return" – totally painless and pleasant. most times, though, i have to give the pill a little help by pushing it down his throat (quickly) with my finger. i also have just recieved 1000 (!) #3 gel caps – these i load up with the pill fragments (and his baby aspirin, every third day) for when others have to give him the pill. it makes it easier to see what you are doing and to confirm that you have, in fact, done it. in the beginning i would come across little tiny damp 1/4 Atenolol pills in lennie’s bedding – what a little sneak! but now i see it go down and i am happy to know we are doing what we can. he’s really so good about the pills, i hafta brag on him a bit here. — rob
My cat is on atenolol for HCM. He takes one quarter of a 25 mg tablet every other day. It was once a day until the condition improved. I do not know if these are time released tablets or not. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Can any one help? I’ve been off the group for a long while as we were > purring away up here. Louella’s cardiomyopathy is controlled with > Atenolol 5 mg in 60 ml suspension – 1cc twice a day. The suspension > is breaking down every two weeks much to the pharmacist’s dismay (and > ours) and turing into something that is making her gag and throw up. > So we are having it made fresh every two weeks and we can’t go on like > this!! We only have one pharmacy that dispenses the pet flavoured > meds – it was working so well <big sigh> > Our vet is willing to help us get the time release tablets (with the > help of our American friends) and I said I’d save him a step by making > a few inquiries – what are are the American vets rxing – is it > Atenolol? I’ll have to find a pharmacy that is friendly to dispensing > on a Canadian vet’s script pad. We can’t get the timed release > tablets up here and are going to try to find a way to do some "cross > border shopping" – I’m in BC, by the way. Thanks a bunch if you can > help. > Carone
My Maine Coon Blue jumps up on the kitchen counter for his pills. I pop it in his mouth and it is gone. He actually gets all excited when he hears the pill bottle! He thinks that when I’m taking my medication, that he should get his too.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Here is what Spot takes for his Cardiomyopathy: > these once a day. Then a baby aspirin every third day. > The Atenolol is in pill form and I have to cut it into quarters which is > sort of hard to do since they are very small to begin with and I usually > manage to salvage two or 3 correct size peices from a tablet but they are > very inexpensive so I don’t mind. The Enacard is another story, it is > almost $1. per pill. > He is doing very well. He comes running to take his medicine and gets it > first thing in the mornings. He gets a tiny bit of Healthy Choice smoked > sausage and that is what makes him come running. > Are you using the liquid because you are not able to pill her? I lay Spot > in my lap on his side, open his mouth and shove the pills in the back of his > mouth quickly. They usually go down and if I can get them back for enough, > he helps and just swallows them. He knows he has to do it and over time has > learned to cooperate. > Good luck. > Jean >Can any one help? I’ve been off the group for a long while as we were >purring away up here. Louella’s cardiomyopathy is controlled with >Atenolol 5 mg in 60 ml suspension – 1cc twice a day. The suspension >is breaking down every two weeks much to the pharmacist’s dismay (and >ours) and turing into something that is making her gag and throw up. >So we are having it made fresh every two weeks and we can’t go on like >this!! We only have one pharmacy that dispenses the pet flavoured >meds – it was working so well <big sigh> >Our vet is willing to help us get the time release tablets (with the >help of our American friends) and I said I’d save him a step by making >a few inquiries – what are are the American vets rxing – is it >Atenolol? I’ll have to find a pharmacy that is friendly to dispensing >on a Canadian vet’s script pad. We can’t get the timed release >tablets up here and are going to try to find a way to do some "cross >border shopping" – I’m in BC, by the way. Thanks a bunch if you can >help. >Carone
Here is what Spot takes for his Cardiomyopathy: these once a day. Then a baby aspirin every third day. The Atenolol is in pill form and I have to cut it into quarters which is sort of hard to do since they are very small to begin with and I usually manage to salvage two or 3 correct size peices from a tablet but they are very inexpensive so I don’t mind. The Enacard is another story, it is almost $1. per pill. He is doing very well. He comes running to take his medicine and gets it first thing in the mornings. He gets a tiny bit of Healthy Choice smoked sausage and that is what makes him come running. Are you using the liquid because you are not able to pill her? I lay Spot in my lap on his side, open his mouth and shove the pills in the back of his mouth quickly. They usually go down and if I can get them back for enough, he helps and just swallows them. He knows he has to do it and over time has learned to cooperate. Good luck. Jean – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Can any one help? I’ve been off the group for a long while as we were >purring away up here. Louella’s cardiomyopathy is controlled with >Atenolol 5 mg in 60 ml suspension – 1cc twice a day. The suspension >is breaking down every two weeks much to the pharmacist’s dismay (and >ours) and turing into something that is making her gag and throw up. >So we are having it made fresh every two weeks and we can’t go on like >this!! We only have one pharmacy that dispenses the pet flavoured >meds – it was working so well <big sigh> >Our vet is willing to help us get the time release tablets (with the >help of our American friends) and I said I’d save him a step by making >a few inquiries – what are are the American vets rxing – is it >Atenolol? I’ll have to find a pharmacy that is friendly to dispensing >on a Canadian vet’s script pad. We can’t get the timed release >tablets up here and are going to try to find a way to do some "cross >border shopping" – I’m in BC, by the way. Thanks a bunch if you can >help. >Carone
Can any one help? I’ve been off the group for a long while as we were purring away up here. Louella’s cardiomyopathy is controlled with Atenolol 5 mg in 60 ml suspension – 1cc twice a day. The suspension is breaking down every two weeks much to the pharmacist’s dismay (and ours) and turing into something that is making her gag and throw up. So we are having it made fresh every two weeks and we can’t go on like this!! We only have one pharmacy that dispenses the pet flavoured meds – it was working so well <big sigh> Our vet is willing to help us get the time release tablets (with the help of our American friends) and I said I’d save him a step by making a few inquiries – what are are the American vets rxing – is it Atenolol? I’ll have to find a pharmacy that is friendly to dispensing on a Canadian vet’s script pad. We can’t get the timed release tablets up here and are going to try to find a way to do some "cross border shopping" – I’m in BC, by the way. Thanks a bunch if you can help. Carone
> Is there any supplement that can help break down kidney stones? > There are at least three different types of kidney stones… they all need > different protocols. > It’s not something to fool around with; get thee a more precise diagnosis,
then <snipalot> > Henriette
I have read in a few herb books that Gravel Root (queen of the meadow root) can at least slow kidney stone formation, and a couple of customers claim their stones went away after taking it a few months. Any validity to this? Any danger? (besides letting the kidney stone get worse for non-treatment of course) Carolyn
My wife was supposed to go under the knife after the doctor told her she had them bad. But we figured that there was reason for the organ being there. (He wanted to take it out) Asking our midwife if there was any alternative and the answer was yes, a four day fast along with three herbs, extra virgin olive oil and fresh lemon juice on the early part of the third day. The results was the stones passing through later in the evening. Makes you wonder about some of the docs. Good luck on what everway you go.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >Is there any supplement that can help break down kidney stones? > Water, if they are the soluble kind, 8-12 8oz glasses of it a > day, and NO soft DRINKS! But most stones are not water soluble. > Non-invasive techniques like "lithotripsy" (being blasted by > sound waves while you sit in a tank of water) are available. > Tsu Dho Nimh > The neat thing about free speech, practiced properly, is that *everyone* > gets to do it. > Ooooohh !!!!!! I am the most knowledgeable skunk. How did i give such > a weird explanation above. I cant believe it. I am a geniass. Ideas > like the ones that are stated above pops in my brain whenever i get > fingered. Ooooooh !!!!!! > Tsu Dho Nimh > The neat thing about free speech, practiced properly, is that > *everyone* > gets to do it.
>My wife was supposed to go under the knife after the doctor told her she had >them bad. But we figured that there was reason for the organ being there. >(He wanted to take it out) Asking our midwife if there was any alternative >and the answer was yes, a four day fast along with three herbs, extra virgin >olive oil and fresh lemon juice on the early part of the third day. The >results was the stones passing through later in the evening. Makes you >wonder about some of the docs. Good luck on what everway you go.
Well right now I’m avoiding calcium. And drinking plenty of water. Plus a few herbal teas. — "Enlightenment, for a wave in the ocean, is the moment the wave realises it is water." Thich Nhat Hanh http://www.rbcc.org.uk/ http://www.wisdom-books.co.uk/
You might do well to consult a Chinese Herbalist. t
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Is there any supplement that can help break down kidney stones? > Cheers. > — > "Enlightenment, for a wave in the ocean, > is the moment the wave realises it is water." > Thich Nhat Hanh > http://www.rbcc.org.uk/ > http://www.wisdom-books.co.uk/
Why would a doctor want to remove the KIDNEY? Are you sure s/he didn’t mean surgical removal of the kidney stones themselves? In any case, glad to hear they passed. My dad went through this twice, several years apart & I’ve seen others go through it too — definitely NOT pleasant. Michele
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My wife was supposed to go under the knife after the doctor told her she had > them bad. But we figured that there was reason for the organ being there. > (He wanted to take it out) Asking our midwife if there was any alternative > and the answer was yes, a four day fast along with three herbs, extra virgin > olive oil and fresh lemon juice on the early part of the third day. The > results was the stones passing through later in the evening. Makes you > wonder about some of the docs. Good luck on what everway you go. > > >Is there any supplement that can help break down kidney stones? > > Water, if they are the soluble kind, 8-12 8oz glasses of it a > > day, and NO soft DRINKS! But most stones are not water soluble. > > Non-invasive techniques like "lithotripsy" (being blasted by > > sound waves while you sit in a tank of water) are available. > > Tsu Dho Nimh > > The neat thing about free speech, practiced properly, is that *everyone* > > gets to do it. > Ooooohh !!!!!! I am the most knowledgeable skunk. How did i give such > a weird explanation above. I cant believe it. I am a geniass. Ideas > like the ones that are stated above pops in my brain whenever i get > fingered. Ooooooh !!!!!! > Tsu Dho Nimh > The neat thing about free speech, practiced properly, is that > *everyone* > gets to do it.
> My wife was supposed to go under the knife after the doctor told her she had > them bad. But we figured that there was reason for the organ being there. > (He wanted to take it out) Asking our midwife if there was any alternative > and the answer was yes, a four day fast along with three herbs, extra virgin > olive oil and fresh lemon juice on the early part of the third day. The > results was the stones passing through later in the evening. Makes you > wonder about some of the docs. Good luck on what everway you go.
… that’s a remedy for gallstones, and the gallbladder is not one of your kidneys. The gallbladder flush is dangerous, at that: the risk for a real stone stuck in the duct after such a flush is rather big, and if that happens you _have_ to go under the knife. The stones she "passed" were actually saponified olive oil… keep them in room temperature and watch them melt. Unless, of course, she had gallstones, too, in which case some of those could be real ones, small enough to have passed through the duct unimpeded. If that’s the case, tell her she was lucky. Here’s a link to the gallbladder flush entry of the medicinal herbfaq: http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed/faqs/medi-3-11-gallbladder-flush.html Henriette — Over 30 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus pictures, zipped archives, the works, at: http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed
> http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed/faqs/medi-3-11-gallbladder-flush.html
Real gallstones are very hard, requiring the use of a diamond tipped blade to slice them. rich — "I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed, or numbered…My life is my own." "I am not a number. I am a free man." No. 6
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Is there any supplement that can help break down kidney stones? >Water, if they are the soluble kind, 8-12 8oz glasses of it a >day, and NO soft DRINKS! But most stones are not water soluble. > Non-invasive techniques like "lithotripsy" (being blasted by >sound waves while you sit in a tank of water) are available. >My Doc seems to think it’s from to much calcium. Does that sound >right?
Most kidney stones are made of calcium … but "too much"? How much calcium do you eat a day? And how much water do you drink? If the urine is always concentrated because you are constantly dehydrated, you can haver high concentrations of calcium in the urine that precipitates out into stones … and the stones get bigger. Tsu Dho Nimh The neat thing about free speech, practiced properly, is that *everyone* gets to do it.
M Tools a
> I am sorry you have that opinion. You are completely wrong. I was attacked here > by AF HD and a few others, including you, from the getgo.Partly because I knew > Hulda Clark personally and mostly because of my illness.
In my case, entirely because of your claims and your unrelenting verbal assaults at anyone who doesn’t believe them. "AF" isn’t here anymore. He tried to accommodate you like the good teacher he seems to be. And you saw it not. This post is in direct response to your comment about me. I can’t explain why anyone else here confronts you. I wish they wouldn’t. arf
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>> >David, >>>I think you are the mental feeb as you contructed the statement. >>>Jan is an "agent of change", >>Oh, really? She’s her own worst enemy — given her delivery, >Look at your own delivery David, what is so wonderful about it? >Well, it doesn’t draw the same level of hostile fire yours does.
Of course not. You are a debunker. Part of the group who does the hostile firing. Must be Rich and Andrew you are thinking of. If you mean I don’t let people run over me or get by with telling lies, you are correct. The hostile fire isn’t coming from me. >I must be doing something right.
Dream on, you are far more hostile than I, with insults and negativity just because your beliefs and opinions differ. >You haven’t had an illness that conv. medicine couldn”t find. >Sure I have, but not one as debilitating as you say yours was.
It was indeed. I almost died. All the while being called all kinds of names because I kept on searching, rather than set back and do nothing. >However, as has been pointed out about a zillion times, if mercury >really was your problem, your recovery would not have been so rapid,
It was NOT rapid! NEVER! You haven’t been reading! The removal was just the first step. After that came the chelating, with lots of suffering. You get this rapid idea from Rich which was totally WRONG. >and you really do fail to acknowledge the role of neurontin (etc) in >your situation.
Wrong again! Thank God for Neurotin. It helps the pain in my feet. The real help was finding the cause of my problems and removing it, not getting a new daily dose. I know plenty of people on Neurotin, they are also on morphine pumps. Neurotin did NOT cause my mercury level to drop. >Which is hardly my fault, or that of anyone else on >this n.g. besides you.
Whatever David. I knew that all the drugs I took for my headaches had played a number on me. Forgive me if I had second thoughts about being put on drugs AGAIN. I seriously doubt I would have had the problems with mercury, had it not been that the many drugs has destroyed my immune system. >You haven’t been put on the defensive and been called all kinds of >names. >Sure I have. You must not read a lot of the responses I get.
Not even a comparsion. The responses you get are coming from your negativity and insults over difference in opinions. From debate. NOT from actual real live ILLNESS that almost killed you. >> Elimination of amalgam >>fillings? That may be a change, but it’s unclear that it’s a >>beneficial change, as the downside of the alternatives is not well >>understood. >It is more understood than conv. medicine thinks it is. If the metal is >poisoning you, you have no chose, but to remove it. >Big "if" there.
Wrong. My MD monitored my mercury level. She also diagnosed me with mercury poisoning,,,,,,,,,,,AFTER I found the cause throght alt. medicine. There are tons of other people also. Just because I am the only one on this ng, don’t believe for a minute it is isolated. More and more people are learning that metal in the mouth is their health problem. Inspite of the denial of organized medicine and dentistry. The news is out and steps are being taken to eliminate mercury in ALL forms. >Change for the sake of change is no blessing. >I can assure you NO one has the metal taken out for the sake of >change. That is totally ridiculous. >I was speaking in more general terms, addressing that "agent of >change" matter.
Which adds up to the same thing. > I am an enemy of stupid, unfounded ideas. >They aren’t unfounded. >Who said I was referring to you?
No one, not I. I wasn’t referring to myself either. The dangers of metal in the mouth are NOT unfounded. >>No it is not my feeble attempts to insult your sig, it is your sig. that is >>>totally pathetic. Do you really believe that most of your opinions are >>>almost always correct? >>Sure. Otherwise, why espouse them? I’m wrong sometimes and I’ll >>admit it when I am. Which puts me miles ahead of a lot of the >>pro-alts in this n.g., by the way. >Wrong. I haven’t seen a single pro-alt who can’t admit when they are >wrong. Can you name even one? >Well, I’ve seen very little of it from you (though what with having >missed most of your contributions over the last year or so, maybe >there’s been a real torrent of it).
Excuse me. I have never had a problem with admitting I was wrong. My posts prove it. >How about John Bain? He’d rather >have all his fingernails pulled out than admit he was ever wrong about >anything.
That is TOTALLY untrue! John is a real gentleman. He has NEVER had that problem! > Not that he ever stops arguing, changing the subject, etc >long enough to admit anything.
UNREAL! UNTRUE!! >Ilena, Roger, the Tibetan herbs >guys… c’mon, you can ask me a harder one than THAT.
Well I see that you are NOT seeing. >>There was no need for your smart alec reply about Jan, which was off >>>topic. >>Says who? It might be the exact explanation. >What were you saying about always admitting when you are wrong?? >Rod is totally correct. >That’ll be the day.
That was uncalled for also! >OK, it was kind of a cheap shot
Thank you. >but maybe it >really explains your behaviors.
My behaviors have been standing up for myself, while knowing all the debunkers were wrong. My main concern is for all of those STILL searching and still suffering, when just maybe the metal in the mouth is the problem. This is NOT a game to me! >Who knows? It wasn’t off-topic.
It was uncalled for and a cheap shot. >>There was no need for your smart alec reply about Jan, which was off >>>topic. >>>You love telling everyone else but hate it when you are confronted. >>I don’t mind being confronted, especially by someone pushing arguments >>as weak as yours. >See there you go. More insults,,,,,,,,,,all because you made a >totally uncalled for nasty comment >It’s not an insult to tell someone with weak arguments that they have >weak arguments. Sorry
This is what Rod said. >>There was no need for your smart alec reply about Jan, which was off >>>topic.
You have been gracious enought to admit it was kinda of a cheap shot, therefore it doesn’t make Rod statement a weak argument. See how we are running in circles?? >> >Your opinions are no better than those of >>>> >Andrew/Ilsa and Peter the "B". >>>> A compliment. Maybe I had you all wrong. >Well at least we have agreement of you being in the same category. Are you >>>more towards Peter the "B" or are you more akin to Andrew/Ilsa ? >>More the former than the latter, I think. >Have you noted the lies in Peter’s posts and websites about Ben Kolb? >There are several. >I’ve mostly been avoiding the Kolb posts, after your fanatical >insistence in dragging it into practically every thread to which you >contribute.
That’s very telling David. I wanted the lies to be corrected. Shame on me. I posted the Ben Kolb story and from there came the twisting and LIES. Now it is ME who is the subject. >From the responses I’ve been seeing to your posts, I >don’t consider you a reliable source on the matter.
I see. Anything to cover for Peter’s lies. Perhaps you missed that this procedure that killed Ben Kolb is STILL being used? Aawwwww that’s why you don’t want to talk about it. Unreliable Jan is a better target. Typical. Sad. Here read about it again David. Have an opinion? http://www.msnbc.com/news/657566.asp#BODY >David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net > These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct.
WRONG! In this post that are mostly INCORRECT. Jan
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>>> >David, >>>>I think you are the mental feeb as you contructed the statement. >>>>Jan is an "agent of change", >>>Oh, really? She’s her own worst enemy — given her delivery, >>Look at your own delivery David, what is so wonderful about it? >Well, it doesn’t draw the same level of hostile fire yours does. >Of course not. You are a debunker. Part of the group who does the hostile >firing. Must be Rich and Andrew you are thinking of. If you mean I don’t let >people run over me or get by with telling lies, you are correct. The hostile >fire isn’t coming from me. >I must be doing something right. >Dream on, you are far more hostile than I, with insults and negativity just >because your beliefs and opinions differ.
All Irony Meters, Worldwide, have been Shattered. <Major Snip> >Whatever David. I knew that all the drugs I took for my headaches had played >a >number on me. Forgive me if I had second thoughts about being put on drugs >AGAIN.
<I seriously doubt I would have had the problems with mercury, had it >not >been that the many drugs has destroyed my immune system.
All Irony Meters, under construction, Worldwide, have been Shattered. The space-time continuum may have been damaged. Is Jan claiming that her Amalgams were not the underlying cause of her health problems? Is she now claiming that her brain medicines did it? What caused the headaches in the first place if not the mercury? >>You haven’t been put on the defensive and been called all kinds of >>names. >Sure I have. You must not read a lot of the responses I get. >Not even a comparsion.
An actual fact. Irony is now restored as a possible state within usenet space time. > The responses you get are coming from your negativity >and insults over difference in opinions. From debate.
Shit! We’re back to square one on the irony thing. No more updates until the situation remains stable within an entire post. >NOT from actual real >live >ILLNESS that almost killed you.
Ah, perhaps the paranoia caused the headaches, which Jan say lead to her problem with the mercury, which is connected to the ankle bone… >>> Elimination of amalgam >>>fillings? That may be a change, but it’s unclear that it’s a >>>beneficial change, as the downside of the alternatives is not well >>>understood. >>It is more understood than conv. medicine thinks it is. If the metal is >>poisoning you, you have no chose, but to remove it. >Big "if" there.
Yes, indeed, David. IF, according to Jan, you haven’t had your immune system destroyed by (large dosages of?) Rx meds, then you likely wouldn’t have a problem with them. Of course, I’m paraphrasing, so here is her original quote: "I seriously doubt I would have had the problems with mercury, had it not been that the many drugs has destroyed my immune system." Major Snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Change for the sake of change is no blessing. >>I can assure you NO one has the metal taken out for the sake of >>change. That is totally ridiculous. >I was speaking in more general terms, addressing that "agent of >change" matter. >Which adds up to the same thing. >> I am an enemy of stupid, unfounded ideas. >>They aren’t unfounded. >Who said I was referring to you?
Let’s just say that Jan resembles some of those remarks and was actually able to achieve some level of awaress of it. >No one, not I. I wasn’t referring to myself either.
I stand corrected & totally refuted on my prior point. Deletia….
> Jan will do her selective snipping trick
Some things are so predictable. It is no wonder since she is in such denial. Snipping my comments is a manifestation of her need to deny the truth of my statements. Now someone will accuse me of flame baiting while totally ignoring all of Jan’s baiting. Some things are so predictable. Aloha, Rich The best defense to logic is ignorance.
>>>David has me killfiled, but doesn’t hesitate to e-mail me for information he >>wanted about my hubbies hair transplant. >How long ago was that, Jan? >What difference does it make David?
As I pointed out later on, if I emailed you when you weren’t in my killfile, which I think was the case, then it must have been a while back. Your quoted passage above is not clear about when I emailed you. I haven’t done it in a long time. > Well over a year. I may not have had you >killfiled at that time; I don’t recall. >It seems you have had me killfiled for a long time. I am surprised to >see this has changed. >>I could have told him to get lost, but I didn’t. >>He has turned into a grouchy old man. >Oh, my. As opposed to the shrieking harridan you are on this group? >No I have never been a shrieking harridan, on this group or anywhere.
Jan, that shows an incredible capacity for self-delusion. I didn’t dump you into my killfile on a whim. I did it because of your enormous negativity, and your extensive abuse of anyone who disagreed with you. It does seem that you’re incapable of realizing how you present yourself to the readership here, but I am certainly not making this up. >Remember, I always tell people you’re nice in email, and you were to >me, too. But on m.h.a, something happens. >The only thing that happened David, was I have been attacked >viciously, because I have regained my health through alternative >medicine.
Um, no. That is not why you are attacked. You are attacked because you are nasty and abusive on m.h.a, and whether or not you regained your health via alt med is irrelevant to that point. >Your remark was completely uncalled for. I have noted lately that you >are only negative, with unpleasant things to say in every post.
The irony of that is incredibly delicious. Oh, I may mostly be posting negative things, but the people I respond to, or about, really deserve it. There’s no requirement that I be all sweetness and light. I see very little S&L emitting from you (I don’t see most of your postings, but I do see the responses to them, and they quote you). >The nice person you found is exactly who I am. I do get riled when others’ >treat me badly, such as using my dead and ill parents to belittle me.
I’m not too big on that one myself, and I’m pretty sick of Rich’s armchair analyses of you et al, but you are essentially in the position of a person who stands outside during a thunderstorm while waving a big metal post in the air, and then complains about being hit by lightning. — David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders."
>David, >What sort of a statement is that.
An accurate one. I’m sorry your reading comprehension is so poor. I guess I should have explained more and used short words so mental feebs like yourself could understand. >Please learn to stick to the subject and >do not let those Giants stand in your way.
And your feeble attempts to insult my .sig are pathetic. >Your opinions are no better than those of >Andrew/Ilsa and Peter the "B".
A compliment. Maybe I had you all wrong. — David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >Hello, > >Is it true that amalgam mercury fillings can cause panic attacks? > >Thanks. > Well, maybe in Jan Drew.
>>David, >What sort of a statement is that. >An accurate one.
Wrong. It is merely an insulting opinion. I’m sorry your reading comprehension is so poor. I >guess I should have explained more and used short words so mental >feebs like yourself could understand.
More insulting arising from the first insult from David. >Please learn to stick to the subject and >do not let those Giants stand in your way. >And your feeble attempts to insult my .sig are pathetic.
Right back at ya David. >Your opinions are no better than those of >Andrew/Ilsa and Peter the "B". >A compliment. Maybe I had you all wrong.
Very telling. David has me killfiled, but doesn’t hesitate to e-mail me for information he wanted about my hubbies hair transplant. I could have told him to get lost, but I didn’t. He has turned into a grouchy old man. Jan
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>> >David, >>I think you are the mental feeb as you contructed the statement. >>Jan is an "agent of change", >Oh, really? She’s her own worst enemy — given her delivery, >Look at your own delivery David, what is so wonderful about it?
Well, it doesn’t draw the same level of hostile fire yours does. I must be doing something right. >You haven’t had an illness that conv. medicine couldn”t find.
Sure I have, but not one as debilitating as you say yours was. However, as has been pointed out about a zillion times, if mercury really was your problem, your recovery would not have been so rapid, and you really do fail to acknowledge the role of neurontin (etc) in your situation. Which is hardly my fault, or that of anyone else on this n.g. besides you. >You haven’t been put on the defensive and been called all kinds of >names.
Sure I have. You must not read a lot of the responses I get. > Elimination of amalgam >fillings? That may be a change, but it’s unclear that it’s a >beneficial change, as the downside of the alternatives is not well >understood. >It is more understood than conv. medicine thinks it is. If the metal is >poisoning you, you have no chose, but to remove it.
Big "if" there. >Change for the sake of change is no blessing. >I can assure you NO one has the metal taken out for the sake of >change. That is totally ridiculous.
I was speaking in more general terms, addressing that "agent of change" matter. > I am an enemy of stupid, unfounded ideas. >They aren’t unfounded.
Who said I was referring to you? ><snip> >>No it is not my feeble attempts to insult your sig, it is your sig. that is >>totally pathetic. Do you really believe that most of your opinions are >>almost always correct? >Sure. Otherwise, why espouse them? I’m wrong sometimes and I’ll >admit it when I am. Which puts me miles ahead of a lot of the >pro-alts in this n.g., by the way. >Wrong. I haven’t seen a single pro-alt who can’t admit when they are >wrong. Can you name even one?
Well, I’ve seen very little of it from you (though what with having missed most of your contributions over the last year or so, maybe there’s been a real torrent of it). How about John Bain? He’d rather have all his fingernails pulled out than admit he was ever wrong about anything. Not that he ever stops arguing, changing the subject, etc long enough to admit anything. Ilena, Roger, the Tibetan herbs guys… c’mon, you can ask me a harder one than THAT. >>There was no need for your smart alec reply about Jan, which was off >>topic. >Says who? It might be the exact explanation. >What were you saying about always admitting when you are wrong?? >Rod is totally correct.
That’ll be the day. OK, it was kind of a cheap shot, but maybe it really explains your behaviors. Who knows? It wasn’t off-topic. >>There was no need for your smart alec reply about Jan, which was off >>topic. >>You love telling everyone else but hate it when you are confronted. >I don’t mind being confronted, especially by someone pushing arguments >as weak as yours. >See there you go. More insults,,,,,,,,,,all because you made a >totally uncalled for nasty comment.
It’s not an insult to tell someone with weak arguments that they have weak arguments. Sorry. >> >Your opinions are no better than those of >>> >Andrew/Ilsa and Peter the "B". >>> A compliment. Maybe I had you all wrong. >>Well at least we have agreement of you being in the same category. Are you >>more towards Peter the "B" or are you more akin to Andrew/Ilsa ? >More the former than the latter, I think. >Have you noted the lies in Peter’s posts and websites about Ben Kolb? >There are several.
I’ve mostly been avoiding the Kolb posts, after your fanatical insistence in dragging it into practically every thread to which you contribute. From the responses I’ve been seeing to your posts, I don’t consider you a reliable source on the matter. — David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders."
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> >David, >> >What sort of a statement is that. >> An accurate one. I’m sorry your reading comprehension is so poor. I >> guess I should have explained more and used short words so mental >> feebs like yourself could understand. >I think you are the mental feeb as you contructed the statement. >Jan is an "agent of change", >Oh, really? She’s her own worst enemy — given her delivery,
Look at your own delivery David, what is so wonderful about it? You haven’t had an illness that conv. medicine couldn”t find. You haven’t been put on the defensive and been called all kinds of names. <snip> > Elimination of amalgam >fillings? That may be a change, but it’s unclear that it’s a >beneficial change, as the downside of the alternatives is not well >understood.
It is more understood than conv. medicine thinks it is. If the metal is poisoning you, you have no chose, but to remove it. <snip> >Change for the sake of change is no blessing.
I can assure you NO one has the metal taken out for the sake of change. That is totally ridiculous. http://www.home.earthlink.net/~berniew1/index.html I. DENTAL AMALGAM FILLINGS PAGE- documents high common mercury exposure levels from dental amalgam fillings; and common adverse health effects on people and dental staff; plus results of 60,000 clinical cases of significant improvements to chronic conditions after amalgam replacement and treatment- as followed and documented by doctors; plus environmental effects of amalgam that affect everyone. (over 1500 peer-reviewed medical study or Gov’t Agency references documenting mechanisms by which mercury from amalgam causes over 30 chronic health conditions) http://www.lichtenberg.dk/experience_after_amalgam_removal.htm http://www.rmdentalcentre.com/article.cfm?artid=4&catid=1 http://www.positivehealth.com/permit/Articles/Dentistry/burrow45.htm http://www.notdoctors.com/mercfill.html http://www.geocities.com/toothk/bernieref1.html > I am an enemy of stupid, unfounded ideas.
They aren’t unfounded. <snip> >No it is not my feeble attempts to insult your sig, it is your sig. that is >totally pathetic. Do you really believe that most of your opinions are >almost always correct? >Sure. Otherwise, why espouse them? I’m wrong sometimes and I’ll >admit it when I am. Which puts me miles ahead of a lot of the >pro-alts in this n.g., by the way.
Wrong. I haven’t seen a single pro-alt who can’t admit when they are wrong. Can you name even one? >There was no need for your smart alec reply about Jan, which was off >topic. >Says who? It might be the exact explanation.
What were you saying about always admitting when you are wrong?? Rod is totally correct. >There was no need for your smart alec reply about Jan, which was off >topic. >You love telling everyone else but hate it when you are confronted. >I don’t mind being confronted, especially by someone pushing arguments >as weak as yours.
See there you go. More insults,,,,,,,,,,all because you made a totally uncalled for nasty comment. > >Your opinions are no better than those of >> >Andrew/Ilsa and Peter the "B". >> A compliment. Maybe I had you all wrong. >Well at least we have agreement of you being in the same category. Are you >more towards Peter the "B" or are you more akin to Andrew/Ilsa ? >More the former than the latter, I think.
Have you noted the lies in Peter’s posts and websites about Ben Kolb? There are several. Jan
I am sorry you have that opinion. You are completely wrong. I was attacked here by AF HD and a few others, including you, from the getgo.Partly because I knew Hulda Clark personally and mostly because of my illness. You have it backwards, I was the one who took the abuse,,,,,,,,,,from the whole group of debunkers. All because you refuse to believe that mercury amalgams can cause mercury poisoning. If you will recall Roger was here then. He saw the vultures swarming in and took me under his wing as a gentleman. Then he was attacked until he lost his temper. He left this ng. I hadn’t posted anything to you, nor you to me. Your comment was completely uncalled for. If you noticed, I made no comment whatsoever to your post, until Rod called your hand. Then you immediately stated your opinion was an accurate one and started in with the usual insults to Rod. The subject was completely lost. You opened the door to more comments from Rich. It is an example of how things go on this ng. You were just plain nasty with your comment ,,,,,,,,,,, and it ends up with how nasty Jan is. It’s OK for you to be nasty and negative. Got twisted as usual. Jan
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >David, > >What sort of a statement is that. > An accurate one. I’m sorry your reading comprehension is so poor. I > guess I should have explained more and used short words so mental > feebs like yourself could understand. >I think you are the mental feeb as you contructed the statement. >Jan is an "agent of change",
Oh, really? She’s her own worst enemy — given her delivery, people would resist her message no matter how beneficial it is. What sort of wonderful change is Jan agenting for, anyway? Elimination of amalgam fillings? That may be a change, but it’s unclear that it’s a beneficial change, as the downside of the alternatives is not well understood. The same nitwits who complain that we don’t have any proper long-term studies of vaccines are also ready to jettison amalgam fillings in favor of composites that also have no long-term studies to prove their safety. Change for the sake of change is no blessing. >you David are nothing less than an "enemy of change."
On the contrary, I am an enemy of stupid, unfounded ideas. I’m perfectly open to change. In fact, the whole point of the scientific method is that there MUST be change when existing theories and beliefs can be shown to be false. This is in contrast to most alt therapies, which DO NOT change. Consider homeopathy, for example. >No it is not my feeble attempts to insult your sig, it is your sig. that is >totally pathetic. Do you really believe that most of your opinions are >almost always correct?
Sure. Otherwise, why espouse them? I’m wrong sometimes and I’ll admit it when I am. Which puts me miles ahead of a lot of the pro-alts in this n.g., by the way. > LOL. Most of your opinions fall into the category of >self indulgent and rather bombastical towards all others.
Hahahaha. You are a card, sir. >There was no need for your smart alec reply about Jan, which was off >topic.
Says who? It might be the exact explanation. >You love telling everyone else but hate it when you are confronted.
I don’t mind being confronted, especially by someone pushing arguments as weak as yours. > >Your opinions are no better than those of > >Andrew/Ilsa and Peter the "B". > A compliment. Maybe I had you all wrong. >Well at least we have agreement of you being in the same category. Are you >more towards Peter the "B" or are you more akin to Andrew/Ilsa ?
More the former than the latter, I think. — David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders."
Jan, this is without a doubt, your best post ever.
>David, >What sort of a statement is that. > An accurate one. I’m sorry your reading comprehension is so poor. I > guess I should have explained more and used short words so mental > feebs like yourself could understand.
I think you are the mental feeb as you contructed the statement. Jan is an "agent of change", you David are nothing less than an "enemy of change." >Please learn to stick to the subject and >do not let those Giants stand in your way. > And your feeble attempts to insult my .sig are pathetic.
No it is not my feeble attempts to insult your sig, it is your sig. that is totally pathetic. Do you really believe that most of your opinions are almost always correct? LOL. Most of your opinions fall into the category of self indulgent and rather bombastical towards all others. There was no need for your smart alec reply about Jan, which was off topic. You love telling everyone else but hate it when you are confronted. Now I do hope that I have made myself perfectly clear and that you fully comphrehend same. >Your opinions are no better than those of >Andrew/Ilsa and Peter the "B". > A compliment. Maybe I had you all wrong.
Well at least we have agreement of you being in the same category. Are you more towards Peter the "B" or are you more akin to Andrew/Ilsa ? Cheers, Rod. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> — David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net > These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct. > "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants > were standing on my shoulders." >> >Hello, >> >Is it true that amalgam mercury fillings can cause panic attacks? >> >Thanks. >> Well, maybe in Jan Drew.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>David has me killfiled, but doesn’t hesitate to e-mail me for information >he >>wanted about my hubbies hair transplant. >How long ago was that, Jan? >What difference does it make David? > Well over a year. I may not have had you >killfiled at that time; I don’t recall. >It seems you have had me killfiled for a long time. I am surprised to see >this >has changed. > I just ran across this post >by accident, so I decided to respond. >OK. >>I could have told him to get lost, but I didn’t. >>He has turned into a grouchy old man. >Oh, my. As opposed to the shrieking harridan you are on this group? >No I have never been a shrieking harridan, on this group or anywhere. >Remember, I always tell people you’re nice in email, and you were to >me, too. But on m.h.a, something happens. >The only thing that happened David, was I have been attacked viciously, >because >I have regained my health through alternative medicine.
Paranoia, thy name is Jan Drew.
>David has me killfiled, but doesn’t hesitate to e-mail me for information he >wanted about my hubbies hair transplant.
How long ago was that, Jan? Well over a year. I may not have had you killfiled at that time; I don’t recall. I just ran across this post by accident, so I decided to respond. >I could have told him to get lost, but I didn’t. >He has turned into a grouchy old man.
Oh, my. As opposed to the shrieking harridan you are on this group? Remember, I always tell people you’re nice in email, and you were to me, too. But on m.h.a, something happens. — David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders."
>The only thing that happened David, was I have been attacked viciously, because >I have regained my health through alternative medicine.
Here it is!! Could it be any more clear?? Jan Drew truly believes that people are attacking her because she regained her health through alternative medicine. And Kaalga just thinks that Jan has "quirks". That is quite a euphemism for what Jan has. I would encourage anyone who cares anything about Jan to inform her that the reason people attack her is because she attacks them. She is in total denial. She has some paranoid delusional idea about people hating her because she got better through alternative health. It is quite wild. Sadly however, the enablers will tell Jan that she is perfectly justified in feeling attacked because people attack her and that they use devious means to trick her. This will reinforce her paranoid fantasy and result in her acting out even more. Then the enablers, especially the one who gets entertainment (pleasure) from her antics, will get a real special treat when they see Jan go off the deep end. It is truly a fascinating dynamic here in mha. Jan becomes a victim of those skeptics who think that she is totally out of her mind AND a victim of those who are endlessly entertained by her antics and enable her maladaptive behavior only for her to continue it endlessly. Now I predict I will be attacked by both Jan and her enablers and yet not a single person will address the substantive points that i have made. Jan will do her selective snipping trick or rehash posts made more than a year ago just to show how low and despicable I am. Kaalga will rush to Jan’s defense. And of course Debbee will throw in her usual inane response. Some things never change. Aloha, Rich The best defense to logic is ignorance.
>>David has me killfiled, but doesn’t hesitate to e-mail me for information he >wanted about my hubbies hair transplant. >How long ago was that, Jan?
What difference does it make David? > Well over a year. I may not have had you >killfiled at that time; I don’t recall.
It seems you have had me killfiled for a long time. I am surprised to see this has changed. > I just ran across this post >by accident, so I decided to respond.
OK. >I could have told him to get lost, but I didn’t. >He has turned into a grouchy old man. >Oh, my. As opposed to the shrieking harridan you are on this group?
No I have never been a shrieking harridan, on this group or anywhere. >Remember, I always tell people you’re nice in email, and you were to >me, too. But on m.h.a, something happens.
The only thing that happened David, was I have been attacked viciously, because I have regained my health through alternative medicine. Your remark was completely uncalled for. I have noted lately that you are only negative, with unpleasant things to say in every post. The nice person you found is exactly who I am. I do get riled when others’ treat me badly, such as using my dead and ill parents to belittle me. I wish you well and wish you would cheer up. Jan
>Or those who believe in the paranoia that she regularly espouses about >amalgams.
Don’t let the facts and studies get in your way. Call it paranoia. Did you know those grey dental fillings in your mouth that the American Dental Association calls "silver fillings" really don’t have much silver and are 50 % mercury, one of the most toxic elements in existence?? And did you know that: > mercury isn’t stable and doesn’t stay in the fillings? > amalgam fillings are the number one source of mercury in most people > the average person with several "silver" fillings gets daily exposure of
mercury of more than the U.S. Dept. Of Health mercury health guideline? > mercury in your blood crosses the blood-brain barrier and accumulates in
your brain, and crosses the placenta to a fetus, accumulating in fetal tissues to higher levels than in the mother. > mercury also is readily passed to milk and infants at levels directly
related to the number of mercury amalgam fillings you have in your mouth. > mercury is a major factor in many chronic health conditions of kids and
adults including bed wetting, ADD, autism, depression, eczema, autoimmune conditions, chronic fatigue, etc. > mercury is known to cause birth defects and developmental effects in large
numbers of kids. The dental profession and ADD have for a long time successfully hidden the fact from the public that most dental fillings contain a lot of mercury which is extremely toxic and known to cause many neurological conditions and birth defects. The U.S. Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry(ATSDR) indicates that mercury and lead cause more adverse health effects than any other toxic substances. The reasons that mercury escapes from amalgam fillings is due to its negative vapor pressure and oral galvanism of mixed metals. Mercury vaporizes at room temperature and the vapor escapes from fillings readily when you chew or brush your teeth or drink hot liquids. So much escapes that if you put a mercury gage in your mouth, it is common for the level of mercury vapor in the mouth to be higher than Government health guidelines for offices and buildings. And although any plumber or electrician knows about galvanic currents being generated by mixed metals, it seems dentists haven’t studied this aspect of their science curriculum. The galvanic currents in your teeth when you have metal in the mouth can be measured with an electrician’s meter or one you get from Radio Shack. And this galvanism drives the metals into your gums and oral cavity and from there to the brain and throughout the body. Mercury is well documented by medical studies to cause neurological problems, immune system problems, hormonal and reproductive system problems. Mercury accumulates in the endocrine system glands which control the body’s hormones and affect everything we do, including the pituitary gland, hypothallamous gland, adrenal and thyroid glands. Mercury and other toxic metals such as nickel which is often in kid’s braces and crowns are documented in studies to cause hormonal imbalances of all of these glands, resulting in night sweats, poor temperature control, childhood bed wetting, neurotransmitter imbalances, ADD, depression, impulsivity, and commonly in teenagers suicidal thoughts. Mercury and toxic metals are also well documented by large numbers of studies to be a major factor in learning disabilities, cognitive deficits, behavioral problems, juvenile delinquency, and criminality. Based on animal studies using rats, sheep, and monkeys as well as human studies, mercury from amalgam in the blood of pregnant women crosses the placenta and appears in amniotic fluid and fetal blood, liver, and pituitary gland within 2 days of placement. Studies have found a significant correlation between number of amalgam fillings of the mother and the level of mercury in the fetus, infants, and young children, and also with the level in mother’s milk. These studies found dental amalgams are the main source of mercury in breast milk and the fetus. U.S. Department of Health(ATSDR) staff indicate that there is evidence that mercury contaminated breast milk is a source of potential risk to infants. Studies found that very low levels of exposure to mercury cause: genetic/ DNA damage and inhibits DNA & RNA synthesis; damage to sperm, lowers sperm counts and reduces motility; menstrual disturbances; reduction in bloods ability to transport oxygen to fetus and transport of essential amino acids and nutrients ; depressed enzyme function in fetus; hypothyroidism, infertility, spontaneous abortions and birth defects. Women with hormonal problems seeking help at a gynecological clinic in Germany were found to have higher body burdens of heavy metals, including mercury, and women with idiopathic menstrual problems had higher levels of mercury. Women with hormonal related alopecia(hair loss) also had higher mercury levels than controls and the condition was alleviated by amalgam removal. Most women with very high levels of mercury were infertile, and after clearance of metals many were fertile again. Epidemiological studies have found that human embryos are highly susceptible to brain damage from prenatal exposure to mercury. Prenatal/early postnatal exposure to mercury affects level of nerve growth factor in the brain and causes imbalances in development of the brain. Mercury vapor exposure causes impaired cell proliferation in the brain and organs, resulting in reduced volume for cerebellum and organs and subtle deficiencies. Exposure to mercury and 4 other heavy metals tested for in a study of school children accounted for 23% of the variation in test scores for reading, spelling and visual motor skills. A Canadian study found that blood levels of five metals were able to predict with a 98% accuracy which children were learning disabled. Several studies found that mercury causes learning disabilities and impairment, ADD, and reduction in IQ. Mercury has an effect on the fetal nervous system at levels far below that considered toxic in adults, and background levels of mercury in mothers correlate significantly with incidence of birth defects and still births . Significant exposures to other toxic metals are also common: lead from peeling paint or water pipes; aluminum from antiperspirants, processed food, and cookware, arsenic from shellfish and treated wood, copper from amalgam and swimming pool chemicals, antimony from flame retardants like Scotchguard in infant wear. While it has been found that many children have significant body burdens of mercury from mercury thimerosal used as a preservative in vaccinations and both infants and adults get significant exposures from amalgam fillings, there is something that can done to reduce future problems due to the accumulation of mercury in the brains and hormonal glands. There are readily available tests to assess exposure to toxic metals. Two of the medical labs that specialize in tests for metals toxicity and effects are Doctors Data Lab(www.doctorsdata.com) and Great Smokies Diagnostic Lab(www.gsdl.com). The latter has good research information on conditions caused by toxic metals as well as descriptions of available tests on its web page. A test that is both useful in assessing toxic metal exposures and essential mineral imbalances is the hair elements test available at either of these labs. Have your doctor contact either of these labs through the web site or by calling their 800 number available on the site to order a kit. The test is easy and very inexpensive. If you want to get a hair test done without doctor involvement you can contact Great Smokies affiliate Body Balance, Inc. at 888-891-3061. For more general information about amalgam issues or for lists of specially trained dentists at protecting the patient when amalgam work is being done see the dental amalgam patients support group DAMS website at www.amalgam.org or the dental education site www.bioprobe.com. Or this : A. Release of Mercury from "Silver" Dental Amalgam B. Effects of Mercury Exposure Central Nervous System C. Effects of Mercury Exposure on Reproduction and Development D. Amalgam Mercury, Antibiotic Resistant Bacteria and Immune SystemImpairment E. Toxic Effects of Mercury Released from Dental Amalgam Restorations andEndodontic Filling Materials. F. Toxic Effects of Mercury on the Cardiovascular System Causes Damage to Brain in Children In February, 1998, a group of the world’s top mercury researchers announced that mercury from amalgam fillings can permanently damage the brain, kidneys, and immune system of children. Jan
>Hello, >Is it true that amalgam mercury fillings can cause panic attacks? >>
Well, maybe in other people too: http://www.digitalnaturopath.com/cond/C585969.html
David, What sort of a statement is that. Please learn to stick to the subject and do not let those Giants stand in your way. In case your Mum never told you it is a "Head" that is on your shoulders and it really is not that big that you need refer it as Giants. Your opinions are no better than those of Andrew/Ilsa and Peter the "B". Cheers, Rod.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Hello, >Is it true that amalgam mercury fillings can cause panic attacks? >Thanks. > Well, maybe in Jan Drew. > — David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net > These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct. > "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants > were standing on my shoulders."
>>Hello, >Is it true that amalgam mercury fillings can cause panic attacks? >Thanks. >Well, maybe in Jan Drew.
Or those who believe in the paranoia that she regularly espouses about amalgams. Aloha, Rich > – David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net > These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct. > "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants > were standing on my shoulders."
The best defense to logic is ignorance.
Sure can, I am having a panic attack now and have not even made the appointment with the Dentist yet.!! However I do recall being diagnosed with Arthritis about two weeks after completion of my first root canal in 1994 and then having a flare two weeks after extensive dental work in 1999. Cheers, Rod.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello, > Is it true that amalgam mercury fillings can cause panic attacks? > Thanks.
>Hello, >Is it true that amalgam mercury fillings can cause panic attacks? >Thanks.
Well, maybe in Jan Drew. — David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders."
Hello, Is it true that amalgam mercury fillings can cause panic attacks? Thanks.
Kelp is also supposed to be good for protection from toxins.
> Does anyone know of some alternative treatments for > Endometriosis? Particularly Endo at the stage 3 level which is > causing temporary infertility? > Please reply by email. > Thanks
If you are talking about detoxifying the body to get rid of chemical pollutants, why not give Essiac Tea a try? They have been having a very passionate discussion on the merits of Essiac tea a few articles up in this very newsgroup. If you think that this tea can help you, check with your doctor, but keep this information in mind: I sell Essiac Tea as a distributor for Enrich International. Enrich produces a full line of 100% natural health and beauty products. Our tea bears the name ‘Native Legend Tea’ but make no mistake-it is genuine Essiac Tea. Native Legend Tea may be mail-ordered (2nd day UPS) by calling 1-800-307-3366. Monday-Friday 9:30am-midnight. Let them know that Jonathan Maxwell in Delray Beach, Florida referred you. They will not take an order without that name.
Does anyone know of some alternative treatments for Endometriosis? Particularly Endo at the stage 3 level which is causing temporary infertility? Please reply by email. Thanks
Believe it or not, some cases of Endo are a result of "chemical estrogens" in the environment. These are byproducts of prolonged exposure to some pesticides, chlorine, petroleum products, etc. My friends in Watersmeet, Michigan drank water that was contaminated by a large DDT dumpsite, and you guessed it….endo and cancer are rampant in their comminity. If there is a possibility that the person you aretalking about has this kind of endo, dieting is highly recommended as these chemicals store in fat cells. Fish oil capsules were suggested. I will look up the rest and email or post for you if you want. I guess what I’m saying is she will need to try and detoxify if this was caused by a source of pollution while avoiding further contact with the pollutants. A water filter would come in handy to avoid chlorine if you’re in a city, and cut way back on meats that store pesticides in their fat cells avoiding more exposure. The Endometriosis (Society? Association?) in the Milwaukee area is beginning to look into this, also. Laura
>Does anyone know of some alternative treatments for >Endometriosis? Particularly Endo at the stage 3 level which is >causing temporary infertility?
From my files: I don’t have any citations on this topic, but I would like to share an experience. My daughter has always had very painful periods. Time after time, she has gone to the emergency ward to be given one drug or another to quell the pain. About 2 years ago, she had settled into a routine of taking Tylenol with codeine for most of the time, and morphine for the one or two days that were the worst. On the basis of some of my research, and in spite of gastroenterologist who insisted she didn’t have celiac disease, I convinced her that a gluten free diet was worth trying. Her GP, having observed the results, has diagnosed her as gluten intolerant. Several things resulted: She no longer takes morphine. She still takes the occasional tylenol during her period, but she has worked 12 hour shifts all the way through her period. This is a girl who had difficulty putting in an 8 hour shift before going gluten-free. Now to the interesting part: The doctors began with suggesting that the pain she was in was due to becoming sexually active so young……seventeen is not that young! The next diagnosis was clymidia (sp?). There were problems with that diagnosis. Then she underwent a surgical procedure where they make an incision in the abdomen, and go in with a tube with a magnifying glass on it. Guess what? They found endometriosis. Well, nothing much helped until the gluten-free diet. Even the pain killers were losing the ability to keep the pain in check. My daughter is a young woman in her early twenties. She has been victimized in one sense, but many people go their whole lives in that pain, so I don’t want to be too critical. What I do want to suggest is that anyone who has a diagnosis of endometriosis, or is troubled by very painful periods, might be very pleasantly surprised by the results of a gluten-free diet. I am not a medical person. I am a father with celiac disease who believes that all first degree relatives of a celiac should be given serum antibody tests for endomysium antibodies. I also believe that if male doctors experienced painful menstruation every 28 days or so, much more research would be done on that issue. I think they would discover celiac disease in many cases. I hope that is helpful. Sincerely, Ron Hoggan For more information on celiac disease this page is a list of annotated The Gluten-Free Page: http://www.panix.com/~donwiss/ Don. P.S.. Here’s a story from a woman that read Ron’s article that I posted just above this: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I found your article interesting. I too suffered debilitating periods almost from the beginning. At age 21 I was told it was all in my head, see a psychiatrist. I was also told I would probably never have children, due to the severe damage to my phallopian tubes. I have 2 children to prove otherwise. At age 29 (after many laparoscopies) I had a hysterectomy, after nearly hemmoraging for several months. 11 months later they had to remove my left ovary, it had adhered to the lining of my abdomen, again causing debilitating pain. At age 34, I got so sick all I could do was go to work, go home and sleep, I had another laparoscopy. No signs of endometriosis, so the doctor referred me to a pain clinic, where they were going to deaden the nerves. My family doctor said I must have chronic abdominal wall pain, due to so many abdominal surgeries, she referred me to a GI who specialized in that disorder. After taking my history, and months of testing, at age 35 I was diagnosed with Celiac Disease. Now I wonder, did I really have endometriosis? The hysterectomy took care of the pain for 9 months, then the removal of one ovary took care of the pain for many years, now the gluten free diet took care of the pain forever. Thanks for the article.
I would like to find out about an experimental treatment for endometriosis using aromatase inhibitors…any leads? — Darrell B Lazarus, PhD
There was an article about this in the April 1998 *Fertility and Sterility.* The abstract can be seen on the web site: http://www-east.elsevier.com/fert/rec_iss/6904toc.htm There has also been some discussion in the newsgroup alt.med.endometriosis and we would be happy to have your input on the subject. If your ISP doesn’t carry alt.med.endometriosis (most of them carry alt.support.endometriosis but not all carry alt.med.endometriosis) you might look for us by I hope this might be helpful. –Susan Strandskov >I would like to find out about an experimental treatment for >endometriosis using aromatase inhibitors…any leads? >– >Darrell B Lazarus, PhD
Spam free Usenet news http://extra.newsguy.com
>Does anyone know of alternative treatments for endometriosis? The doctor >who’s treating me thinks that hysterectomy is the only option, and I’m not >enthralled with that idea. >Thanks for your help!
Many people have reported help with many human ailments by spending some time on a general body detoxication program. Below find such a detox routine that’s been used successfully in England for many years. Please do check with a nutritionally-oriented health professional before giving this a try, however. A Detoxifying Regime by Dr. Keki Sidwa, N.D., D.O., D.N.H. I have no doubt in my mind that long fasts have the best results in chronic ailments. But not many people have the time or inclination nor the necessary grit and commitment to undertake such a fast. For those who want to detoxify themselves the following practical suggestions will go a long way in helping them to detoxify. Most people are quite capable of doing a three day water fast. Be sure to obtain purified water only. During these three days, slow down your daily activities – specially physical activities. Some may even find it is better to take to bed and keep warm if the weather is cold. After these three days – for one week put yourself on a monotrophic diet , i.e. eat only one type of fruit at each meal. For example: BREAKFAST could be melon only. Eat as much as you like and feel satisfied that you have had enough. All types of melons are good. Honeydew, Cantaloupe, Gala or Watermelon. LUNCHTIME: Eat only oranges or Pink grapefruit or Pineapples or Plums whatever you fancy but don’t mix the fruits. Eat till hunger is satisfied. 4 p.m. Have a large (12 oz.) glass of freshly pressed carrot juice. EVENING: Eat only apples, pears, grapes or bananas. Eat only one fruit at a time and eat till hunger is satisfied. During the week you can vary daily the fruits you want to eat on that particular day. You can resume your household duties or light office work but do not exert yourself physically. Conserve energy. It is possible that some of you may feel some reactions, like light headedness, nausea at times, a little listlessness and feeling of tiredness and mental irritability. Persevere – Rome wasn’t built in a day. After all it took you years to get into the toxic state that you now find yourself into. The symptoms will go away eventually. Lots of sleep and rest are essential at this stage so do not plan any social events. After these ten days – I suggest you go for one month on an all raw food diet as follows: BREAKFAST: Fresh fruit only of oranges, kiwi’s, pineapple, apple, plums, pink grapefruit or any other acid fruits. You can now mix the fruits. Eat enough to satisfy your hunger. Just one orange and one apple will not be enough. You have to get your calories from the fruit you eat. LUNCH: Eat heartily of grapes, pears, bananas, mangoes, fresh dates, and with this meal eat a head of lettuce, 1-2 sticks of celery and a handful of dried raisins or sultanas, or 3-4 dried figs or 10-12 dried Hunza apricots. SNACK: 4 p.m. A large 12 oz glass of freshly squeezed carrot juice. EVENING: A large Rainbow salad of grated red cabbage, grated carrots, grated beetroot, chopped up celery, watercress, cucumber, and red or green peppers. A dressing could be made as follows: Put 2-3 tomatoes in the blender, 1 whole peeled large size avocado and a pinch of marigold bouillon powder and 1 tea spoonful cold pressed linseed oil or olive oil. Blend the lot and pour it on your Rainbow salad and mix thoroughly. Enjoy it with some lettuce leaves. To this salad you add 3 ozs of nuts and seeds. Not salted nuts and not peanuts. Brazil, Cashew, Almonds, Sunflower seeds, Pumpkin seeds. Whatever you fancy. Chew well or grind the nuts dry and sprinkle on the Rainbow salad or put ground nuts in a blender, add just a little water and make it into nut cream. On such a regime – if you have not cheated in between – at the end of that month you will feel cleaner, fitter, a little slimmer and more energetic with the added bonus of some of your symptoms disappearing. No cooked food should be eaten. Full activity can be resumed on this raw diet. This regime has worked on thousands of cases. The choice is yours. Remember no one can cure you. Your own body, given the opportunity will rebuild itself. Chet Day Editor, Health & Beyond To get your free subscription to my twice monthly HEALTH TIP Newsletter, packed with natural health and living food information, type SUBSCRIBE TIP in an email Enjoy brain-engaging and assumption-busting natural health articles: http://members.gnn.com/chetday/open.htm
Does anyone know of alternative treatments for endometriosis? The doctor who’s treating me thinks that hysterectomy is the only option, and I’m not enthralled with that idea. Thanks for your help!
>Does anyone know of alternative treatments for endometriosis? The doctor >who’s treating me thinks that hysterectomy is the only option, and I’m not >enthralled with that idea.
Here’s a suggestion: I don’t have any citations on this topic, but I would like to share an experience. My daughter has always had very painful periods. Time after time, she has gone to the emergency ward to be given one drug or another to quell the pain. About 2 years ago, she had settled into a routine of taking Tylenol with codeine for most of the time, and morphine for the one or two days that were the worst. On the basis of some of my research, and in spite of gastroenterologist who insisted she didn’t have celiac disease, I convinced her that a gluten free diet was worth trying. Her GP, having observed the results, has diagnosed her as gluten intolerant. Several things resulted: She no longer takes morphine. She still takes the occasional tylenol during her period, but she has worked 12 hour shifts all the way through her period. This is a girl who had difficulty putting in an 8 hour shift before going gluten-free. Now to the interesting part: The doctors began with suggesting that the pain she was in was due to becoming sexually active so young……seventeen is not that young! The next diagnosis was clymidia (sp?). There were problems with that diagnosis. Then she underwent a surgical procedure where they make an incision in the abdomen, and go in with a tube with a magnifying glass on it. Guess what? They found endometriosis. Well, nothing much helped until the gluten-free diet. Even the pain killers were losing the ability to keep the pain in check. My daughter is a young woman in her early twenties. She has been victimized in one sense, but many people go their whole lives in that pain, so I don’t want to be too critical. What I do want to suggest is that anyone who has a diagnosis of endometriosis, or is troubled by very painful periods, might be very pleasantly surprised by the results of a gluten-free diet. I am not a medical person. I am a father with celiac disease who believes that all first degree relatives of a celiac should be given serum antibody tests for endomysium antibodies. I also believe that if male doctors experienced painful menstruation every 28 days or so, much more research would be done on that issue. I think they would discover celiac disease in many cases. I hope that is helpful. Sincerely, Ron Hoggan For more information on celiac disease this page is a list of annotated The Gluten-Free Page: http://www.panix.com/~donwiss/ Don.
My best girlfriend just had a hysterectomy after years of constant endo pain. Everyone says she’s a nicer person now, more relaxed. That’s what the lack of pain will do for you! This is probably a dumb question, but do most women have painful periods throughout their fertile years?? When I was 11, I thought I would die from the cramps I got, and the only time my cramps have lessened except when I had an IUD. But I’ve never had pain any other time. Jean Mc
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> With endo it can mean both. Some gals can have endo without even having the > severe pain that other women have. I guess it can depend on your threshold > for pain. I had both severe cramps and generalized pelvic pain that was all > month long. Kind of a burning aching kind of pain that was worse with my > period. I also had pain during intercourse and was amazed to learn that > that was not normal when I found out I had endo. It had just always hurt. > The first time I mentioned it to a gyno, he actually told me it was guilt > because I was Catholic and having sex with birth control and outside of > marriage. Oh. Nice. I lived with the pain and just figured that was how > sex was until another, very compassionate, Dr ask me if I had pain during > sex and told me the reason why and how to avoid it. > — > Cyberhugs, > DianeW > Very interesting…when "pelvic pain" is mentioned, does this mean severe > menstrual cramps or chronic pain? > > Borrowed from alt.support.mult-sclerosis: > > Endometriosis > > Copyright 2002 Immunotherapy Weekly via NewsRx.com and NewsRx.net > > Immunotherapy Weekly > > October 23, 2002 > > ENDOMETRIOSIS: Disorder associated with wide range of diseases > > U.S. researchers report in the journal Human Reproduction that women > with > > endometriosis are significantly more likely than other women to suffer > from > > a number of additional distressing or disabling conditions. > > These include a variety of autoimmune diseases, allergies, asthma, > > hypothyroidism, chronic fatigue syndrome and fibromyalgia. > > Their findings are from the first population-based study in the world to > > investigate whether a range of other disorders are more prevalent in > women > > with endometriosis, which affects an estimated 8-10% of women of > > reproductive age. > > The results – which confirmed there was typically a 10-year delay > between > > onset of symptoms and a diagnosis of endometriosis – have prompted the > > researchers to urge doctors, especially those taking care of > adolescents, > to > > consider a diagnosis of endometriosis in girls and women complaining of > > pelvic pain and to watch out for other potentially serious conditions in > > these patients. The research team from the National Institute of Child > > Health and Human Development in Bethesda, Maryland, the School of Public > > Health and Health Services at George Washington University in > Washington, > > DC, and the Endometriosis Association in Milwaukee, carried out and > analyzed > > a survey of 3680 members of the Endometriosis Association, 90% of whom > were > > of reproductive age. All the women had surgically diagnosed > endometriosis. > > They found that among these women: > > *20% had more than one other disease. > > *Up to 31% of those with coexisting diseases had also been diagnosed > with > > either fibromyalgia or chronic fatigue syndrome and some of these > > additionally had other autoimmune or endocrine disease. > > *Chronic fatigue syndrome was more than a hundred times more common than > in > > the female U.S. population generally. > > *Hypothyroidism (under-active thyroid gland) was seven times more > common. > > *Fibromyalgia was twice as common. > > *The autoimmune inflammatory diseases – systemic lupus erythematosus, > > Sjogren syndrome and rheumatoid arthritis, and also multiple sclerosis, > > occurred more frequently. > > *Rates of allergic and atopic conditions such as asthma and eczema were > > higher – e.g., 61% of the endometriosis sufferers had allergies compared > > with 18% of the U.S. general population, and 12% had asthma compared > with > > 5%. If a woman had endometriosis plus an endocrine disease the figure > rose > > to 72% and it was 88% if she had endometriosis plus fibromyalgia or > chronic > > fatigue syndrome. > > *Two-thirds of the survey subjects reported that relatives also had > either > > diagnosed or suspected endometriosis, confirming research that suggested > > there was a familial tendency. > > "As well as finding an increased prevalence of this wide range of > diseases > > and conditions among women with endometriosis, we found that they > reported > > significant pain and disability and, very worryingly, that there was > > typically a 10-year delay between the onset of pelvic pain and > diagnosis," > > said lead investigator Ninet Sinaii, from the National Institute of > Child > > Health and Human Development. > > Coinvestigator Dr. Pamela Stratton pointed out that, "Since women appear > to > > develop symptoms shortly after the onset of their periods and are not > > diagnosed for years, we don’t know whether endometriosis actually occurs > at > > menarche as others have reported or whether it develops over time. It’s > also > > unclear whether early treatment could prevent chronic pelvic pain from > > taking hold. It is vital, therefore, that attempts should be made to > > diagnose and treat endometriosis in adolescents." > > Sinaii said there were a number of limitations to the study, which could > > potentially introduce bias, including the relatively young age of the > > respondents, the fact that they were predominantly white, well-educated > and > > members of a support group (therefore possibly atypical), problems with > > misinterpreting questions, recognizing disease names, and so on. > > Therefore, the researchers carried out a sensitivity analysis. This > > confirmed that even if the disease prevalence was underestimated in the > > general population and overestimated in the study sample, the rates > reported > > in women with endometriosis were still significantly higher. > > "These differences appear real," said Sinaii. > > She said the study was the first to provide data on the characteristics > and > > coexisting states of women with pain from endometriosis. > > "Women with endometriosis frequently suffer from autoimmune inflammatory > > diseases, hypothyroidism, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, > allergies > > and asthma. It is evident that women with pelvic pain are not diagnosed > as > > having endometriosis for many years, suggesting that physicians, > especially > > those taking care of adolescents, should consider the diagnosis (High > rates > > of autoimmune and endocrine disorders, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue > > syndrome and atopic diseases among women with endometriosis: a survey > > analysis. Hum Reprod, 2002;17(10):2715-2724). > > "These findings also suggest a strong association between endometriosis > and > > autoimmune disorders and indicate the need to consider the coexistence > of > > other conditions in women with endometriosis," she concluded. > > This article was prepared by Immunotherapy Weekly editors from staff and > > other reports. > > http://www.NewsRx.net > > — > > Brought to you by Cowboy and Paul Jones. See Paul Jones website at > > www.mult-sclerosis.org for this article and many more.
The only thing that has ever mhelped my cramps is Advil, and I used to take up to 1600 mg at a time to cure them! So it could be the NSAIDs that are helping you. Jean Mc
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My best girlfriend just had a hysterectomy after years of constant endo > pain. Everyone says she’s a nicer person now, more relaxed. That’s what > the lack of pain will do for you! > This is probably a dumb question, but do most women have painful periods > throughout their fertile years?? When I was 11, I thought I would die from > the cramps I got, and the only time my cramps have lessened except when I > had an IUD. But I’ve never had pain any other time. > Jean Mc > Not a dumb question, and I’ve always wondered. Many women have painful > periods, so I’ve always wondered what my excuse was. Mine are painless, except > for the first 2 or 3 when I was a teen. At first, I thought it was because of > the high doses of aspirin I was taking for my arthritis, but the past 3 or 4 > years I’ve been on NSAIDS instead and I’m still pain-free. > It’s a bit of an annoyance lately because I always seem to start in the > middle of the night and wake up with soiled bedsheets. Luckily they’re white, > so I can wash and then bleach them. But still, bleah… > And sometimes I cramp a little in the morning after I’ve realized that > I’m menstruating. It’s like it’s psychological in my case. Am I a nutcase? > Sharon
> My best girlfriend just had a hysterectomy after years of constant endo > pain. Everyone says she’s a nicer person now, more relaxed. That’s what > the lack of pain will do for you! > This is probably a dumb question, but do most women have painful periods > throughout their fertile years?? When I was 11, I thought I would die from > the cramps I got, and the only time my cramps have lessened except when I > had an IUD. But I’ve never had pain any other time. > Jean Mc
Not a dumb question, and I’ve always wondered. Many women have painful periods, so I’ve always wondered what my excuse was. Mine are painless, except for the first 2 or 3 when I was a teen. At first, I thought it was because of the high doses of aspirin I was taking for my arthritis, but the past 3 or 4 years I’ve been on NSAIDS instead and I’m still pain-free. It’s a bit of an annoyance lately because I always seem to start in the middle of the night and wake up with soiled bedsheets. Luckily they’re white, so I can wash and then bleach them. But still, bleah… And sometimes I cramp a little in the morning after I’ve realized that I’m menstruating. It’s like it’s psychological in my case. Am I a nutcase? Sharon
I had HORRIBLE cramps in my teens. Had to check out of high school a few times because i couldn’t sit up straight. Missed a test my first go-round in college because the pain medicine knocked me out too much (fortunately I had a female teacher and she recognized that my problem was legit and let me take the test the next day). It all calmed down in my 20s. Only mild cramps until just about 40 when they began to worsen. I thought it was just the hormones starting to change again but it turned out I was rapidly growing fibroids. After a couple of months recovering from surgery, I was done with it all! You know I don’t miss it. but no endometriosis at all. But that high school buddy of mine who now has cancer had a horrible time with it about 15 years ago. I wonder if that had anything to do with the immune system’s failure in the cancer issues. — Nann remove the Gator cheer to email me It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. – Aristotle – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My best girlfriend just had a hysterectomy after years of constant endo > pain. Everyone says she’s a nicer person now, more relaxed. That’s what > the lack of pain will do for you! > This is probably a dumb question, but do most women have painful periods > throughout their fertile years?? When I was 11, I thought I would die from > the cramps I got, and the only time my cramps have lessened except when I > had an IUD. But I’ve never had pain any other time. > Jean Mc
…….(blushing)…. I can’t get into the specifics of that here but I’d be happy to take it to email! — Cyberhugs, DianeW
> How? How? This is a relatively recent development for me. No endo that I > know of… > another, very compassionate, Dr ask me if I had pain during sex and
told me the reason why and how to avoid it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> — > Cyberhugs, > DianeW > > Very interesting…when "pelvic pain" is mentioned, does this mean severe > > menstrual cramps or chronic pain? > > > Borrowed from alt.support.mult-sclerosis: > > > Endometriosis > > > Copyright 2002 Immunotherapy Weekly via NewsRx.com and NewsRx.net > > > Immunotherapy Weekly > > > October 23, 2002 > > > ENDOMETRIOSIS: Disorder associated with wide range of diseases > > > U.S. researchers report in the journal Human Reproduction that women > with > > > endometriosis are significantly more likely than other women to suffer > > from > > > a number of additional distressing or disabling conditions. > > > These include a variety of autoimmune diseases, allergies, asthma, > > > hypothyroidism, chronic fatigue syndrome and fibromyalgia. > > > Their findings are from the first population-based study in the world to > > > investigate whether a range of other disorders are more prevalent in > women > > > with endometriosis, which affects an estimated 8-10% of women of > > > reproductive age. > > > The results – which confirmed there was typically a 10-year delay > between > > > onset of symptoms and a diagnosis of endometriosis – have prompted the > > > researchers to urge doctors, especially those taking care of > adolescents, > > to > > > consider a diagnosis of endometriosis in girls and women complaining of > > > pelvic pain and to watch out for other potentially serious conditions in > > > these patients. The research team from the National Institute of Child > > > Health and Human Development in Bethesda, Maryland, the School of Public > > > Health and Health Services at George Washington University in > Washington, > > > DC, and the Endometriosis Association in Milwaukee, carried out and > > analyzed > > > a survey of 3680 members of the Endometriosis Association, 90% of whom > > were > > > of reproductive age. All the women had surgically diagnosed > endometriosis. > > > They found that among these women: > > > *20% had more than one other disease. > > > *Up to 31% of those with coexisting diseases had also been diagnosed > with > > > either fibromyalgia or chronic fatigue syndrome and some of these > > > additionally had other autoimmune or endocrine disease. > > > *Chronic fatigue syndrome was more than a hundred times more common than > > in > > > the female U.S. population generally. > > > *Hypothyroidism (under-active thyroid gland) was seven times more > common. > > > *Fibromyalgia was twice as common. > > > *The autoimmune inflammatory diseases – systemic lupus erythematosus, > > > Sjogren syndrome and rheumatoid arthritis, and also multiple sclerosis, > > > occurred more frequently. > > > *Rates of allergic and atopic conditions such as asthma and eczema were > > > higher – e.g., 61% of the endometriosis sufferers had allergies compared > > > with 18% of the U.S. general population, and 12% had asthma compared > with > > > 5%. If a woman had endometriosis plus an endocrine disease the figure > rose > > > to 72% and it was 88% if she had endometriosis plus fibromyalgia or > > chronic > > > fatigue syndrome. > > > *Two-thirds of the survey subjects reported that relatives also had > either > > > diagnosed or suspected endometriosis, confirming research that suggested > > > there was a familial tendency. > > > "As well as finding an increased prevalence of this wide range of > diseases > > > and conditions among women with endometriosis, we found that they > reported > > > significant pain and disability and, very worryingly, that there was > > > typically a 10-year delay between the onset of pelvic pain and > diagnosis," > > > said lead investigator Ninet Sinaii, from the National Institute of > Child > > > Health and Human Development. > > > Coinvestigator Dr. Pamela Stratton pointed out that, "Since women appear > > to > > > develop symptoms shortly after the onset of their periods and are not > > > diagnosed for years, we don’t know whether endometriosis actually occurs > > at > > > menarche as others have reported or whether it develops over time. It’s > > also > > > unclear whether early treatment could prevent chronic pelvic pain from > > > taking hold. It is vital, therefore, that attempts should be made to > > > diagnose and treat endometriosis in adolescents." > > > Sinaii said there were a number of limitations to the study, which could > > > potentially introduce bias, including the relatively young age of the > > > respondents, the fact that they were predominantly white, well-educated > > and > > > members of a support group (therefore possibly atypical), problems with > > > misinterpreting questions, recognizing disease names, and so on. > > > Therefore, the researchers carried out a sensitivity analysis. This > > > confirmed that even if the disease prevalence was underestimated in the > > > general population and overestimated in the study sample, the rates > > reported > > > in women with endometriosis were still significantly higher. > > > "These differences appear real," said Sinaii. > > > She said the study was the first to provide data on the characteristics > > and > > > coexisting states of women with pain from endometriosis. > > > "Women with endometriosis frequently suffer from autoimmune inflammatory > > > diseases, hypothyroidism, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, > > allergies > > > and asthma. It is evident that women with pelvic pain are not diagnosed > as > > > having endometriosis for many years, suggesting that physicians, > > especially > > > those taking care of adolescents, should consider the diagnosis (High > > rates > > > of autoimmune and endocrine disorders, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue > > > syndrome and atopic diseases among women with endometriosis: a survey > > > analysis. Hum Reprod, 2002;17(10):2715-2724). > > > "These findings also suggest a strong association between endometriosis > > and > > > autoimmune disorders and indicate the need to consider the coexistence > of > > > other conditions in women with endometriosis," she concluded. > > > This article was prepared by Immunotherapy Weekly editors from staff and > > > other reports. > > > http://www.NewsRx.net > > > — > > > Brought to you by Cowboy and Paul Jones. See Paul Jones website at > > > www.mult-sclerosis.org for this article and many more.
How? How? This is a relatively recent development for me. No endo that I know of… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > another, very compassionate, Dr ask me if I had pain during sex and told me the reason why and how to avoid it. > — > Cyberhugs, > DianeW > Very interesting…when "pelvic pain" is mentioned, does this mean severe > menstrual cramps or chronic pain? > > Borrowed from alt.support.mult-sclerosis: > > Endometriosis > > Copyright 2002 Immunotherapy Weekly via NewsRx.com and NewsRx.net > > Immunotherapy Weekly > > October 23, 2002 > > ENDOMETRIOSIS: Disorder associated with wide range of diseases > > U.S. researchers report in the journal Human Reproduction that women > with > > endometriosis are significantly more likely than other women to suffer > from > > a number of additional distressing or disabling conditions. > > These include a variety of autoimmune diseases, allergies, asthma, > > hypothyroidism, chronic fatigue syndrome and fibromyalgia. > > Their findings are from the first population-based study in the world to > > investigate whether a range of other disorders are more prevalent in > women > > with endometriosis, which affects an estimated 8-10% of women of > > reproductive age. > > The results – which confirmed there was typically a 10-year delay > between > > onset of symptoms and a diagnosis of endometriosis – have prompted the > > researchers to urge doctors, especially those taking care of > adolescents, > to > > consider a diagnosis of endometriosis in girls and women complaining of > > pelvic pain and to watch out for other potentially serious conditions in > > these patients. The research team from the National Institute of Child > > Health and Human Development in Bethesda, Maryland, the School of Public > > Health and Health Services at George Washington University in > Washington, > > DC, and the Endometriosis Association in Milwaukee, carried out and > analyzed > > a survey of 3680 members of the Endometriosis Association, 90% of whom > were > > of reproductive age. All the women had surgically diagnosed > endometriosis. > > They found that among these women: > > *20% had more than one other disease. > > *Up to 31% of those with coexisting diseases had also been diagnosed > with > > either fibromyalgia or chronic fatigue syndrome and some of these > > additionally had other autoimmune or endocrine disease. > > *Chronic fatigue syndrome was more than a hundred times more common than > in > > the female U.S. population generally. > > *Hypothyroidism (under-active thyroid gland) was seven times more > common. > > *Fibromyalgia was twice as common. > > *The autoimmune inflammatory diseases – systemic lupus erythematosus, > > Sjogren syndrome and rheumatoid arthritis, and also multiple sclerosis, > > occurred more frequently. > > *Rates of allergic and atopic conditions such as asthma and eczema were > > higher – e.g., 61% of the endometriosis sufferers had allergies compared > > with 18% of the U.S. general population, and 12% had asthma compared > with > > 5%. If a woman had endometriosis plus an endocrine disease the figure > rose > > to 72% and it was 88% if she had endometriosis plus fibromyalgia or > chronic > > fatigue syndrome. > > *Two-thirds of the survey subjects reported that relatives also had > either > > diagnosed or suspected endometriosis, confirming research that suggested > > there was a familial tendency. > > "As well as finding an increased prevalence of this wide range of > diseases > > and conditions among women with endometriosis, we found that they > reported > > significant pain and disability and, very worryingly, that there was > > typically a 10-year delay between the onset of pelvic pain and > diagnosis," > > said lead investigator Ninet Sinaii, from the National Institute of > Child > > Health and Human Development. > > Coinvestigator Dr. Pamela Stratton pointed out that, "Since women appear > to > > develop symptoms shortly after the onset of their periods and are not > > diagnosed for years, we don’t know whether endometriosis actually occurs > at > > menarche as others have reported or whether it develops over time. It’s > also > > unclear whether early treatment could prevent chronic pelvic pain from > > taking hold. It is vital, therefore, that attempts should be made to > > diagnose and treat endometriosis in adolescents." > > Sinaii said there were a number of limitations to the study, which could > > potentially introduce bias, including the relatively young age of the > > respondents, the fact that they were predominantly white, well-educated > and > > members of a support group (therefore possibly atypical), problems with > > misinterpreting questions, recognizing disease names, and so on. > > Therefore, the researchers carried out a sensitivity analysis. This > > confirmed that even if the disease prevalence was underestimated in the > > general population and overestimated in the study sample, the rates > reported > > in women with endometriosis were still significantly higher. > > "These differences appear real," said Sinaii. > > She said the study was the first to provide data on the characteristics > and > > coexisting states of women with pain from endometriosis. > > "Women with endometriosis frequently suffer from autoimmune inflammatory > > diseases, hypothyroidism, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, > allergies > > and asthma. It is evident that women with pelvic pain are not diagnosed > as > > having endometriosis for many years, suggesting that physicians, > especially > > those taking care of adolescents, should consider the diagnosis (High > rates > > of autoimmune and endocrine disorders, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue > > syndrome and atopic diseases among women with endometriosis: a survey > > analysis. Hum Reprod, 2002;17(10):2715-2724). > > "These findings also suggest a strong association between endometriosis > and > > autoimmune disorders and indicate the need to consider the coexistence > of > > other conditions in women with endometriosis," she concluded. > > This article was prepared by Immunotherapy Weekly editors from staff and > > other reports. > > http://www.NewsRx.net > > — > > Brought to you by Cowboy and Paul Jones. See Paul Jones website at > > www.mult-sclerosis.org for this article and many more.
Borrowed from alt.support.mult-sclerosis: Endometriosis Copyright 2002 Immunotherapy Weekly via NewsRx.com and NewsRx.net Immunotherapy Weekly October 23, 2002 ENDOMETRIOSIS: Disorder associated with wide range of diseases U.S. researchers report in the journal Human Reproduction that women with endometriosis are significantly more likely than other women to suffer from a number of additional distressing or disabling conditions. These include a variety of autoimmune diseases, allergies, asthma, hypothyroidism, chronic fatigue syndrome and fibromyalgia. Their findings are from the first population-based study in the world to investigate whether a range of other disorders are more prevalent in women with endometriosis, which affects an estimated 8-10% of women of reproductive age. The results – which confirmed there was typically a 10-year delay between onset of symptoms and a diagnosis of endometriosis – have prompted the researchers to urge doctors, especially those taking care of adolescents, to consider a diagnosis of endometriosis in girls and women complaining of pelvic pain and to watch out for other potentially serious conditions in these patients. The research team from the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development in Bethesda, Maryland, the School of Public Health and Health Services at George Washington University in Washington, DC, and the Endometriosis Association in Milwaukee, carried out and analyzed a survey of 3680 members of the Endometriosis Association, 90% of whom were of reproductive age. All the women had surgically diagnosed endometriosis. They found that among these women: *20% had more than one other disease. *Up to 31% of those with coexisting diseases had also been diagnosed with either fibromyalgia or chronic fatigue syndrome and some of these additionally had other autoimmune or endocrine disease. *Chronic fatigue syndrome was more than a hundred times more common than in the female U.S. population generally. *Hypothyroidism (under-active thyroid gland) was seven times more common. *Fibromyalgia was twice as common. *The autoimmune inflammatory diseases – systemic lupus erythematosus, Sjogren syndrome and rheumatoid arthritis, and also multiple sclerosis, occurred more frequently. *Rates of allergic and atopic conditions such as asthma and eczema were higher – e.g., 61% of the endometriosis sufferers had allergies compared with 18% of the U.S. general population, and 12% had asthma compared with 5%. If a woman had endometriosis plus an endocrine disease the figure rose to 72% and it was 88% if she had endometriosis plus fibromyalgia or chronic fatigue syndrome. *Two-thirds of the survey subjects reported that relatives also had either diagnosed or suspected endometriosis, confirming research that suggested there was a familial tendency. "As well as finding an increased prevalence of this wide range of diseases and conditions among women with endometriosis, we found that they reported significant pain and disability and, very worryingly, that there was typically a 10-year delay between the onset of pelvic pain and diagnosis," said lead investigator Ninet Sinaii, from the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development. Coinvestigator Dr. Pamela Stratton pointed out that, "Since women appear to develop symptoms shortly after the onset of their periods and are not diagnosed for years, we don’t know whether endometriosis actually occurs at menarche as others have reported or whether it develops over time. It’s also unclear whether early treatment could prevent chronic pelvic pain from taking hold. It is vital, therefore, that attempts should be made to diagnose and treat endometriosis in adolescents." Sinaii said there were a number of limitations to the study, which could potentially introduce bias, including the relatively young age of the respondents, the fact that they were predominantly white, well-educated and members of a support group (therefore possibly atypical), problems with misinterpreting questions, recognizing disease names, and so on. Therefore, the researchers carried out a sensitivity analysis. This confirmed that even if the disease prevalence was underestimated in the general population and overestimated in the study sample, the rates reported in women with endometriosis were still significantly higher. "These differences appear real," said Sinaii. She said the study was the first to provide data on the characteristics and coexisting states of women with pain from endometriosis. "Women with endometriosis frequently suffer from autoimmune inflammatory diseases, hypothyroidism, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, allergies and asthma. It is evident that women with pelvic pain are not diagnosed as having endometriosis for many years, suggesting that physicians, especially those taking care of adolescents, should consider the diagnosis (High rates of autoimmune and endocrine disorders, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome and atopic diseases among women with endometriosis: a survey analysis. Hum Reprod, 2002;17(10):2715-2724). "These findings also suggest a strong association between endometriosis and autoimmune disorders and indicate the need to consider the coexistence of other conditions in women with endometriosis," she concluded. This article was prepared by Immunotherapy Weekly editors from staff and other reports. http://www.NewsRx.net — Brought to you by Cowboy and Paul Jones. See Paul Jones website at www.mult-sclerosis.org for this article and many more.
With endo it can mean both. Some gals can have endo without even having the severe pain that other women have. I guess it can depend on your threshold for pain. I had both severe cramps and generalized pelvic pain that was all month long. Kind of a burning aching kind of pain that was worse with my period. I also had pain during intercourse and was amazed to learn that that was not normal when I found out I had endo. It had just always hurt. The first time I mentioned it to a gyno, he actually told me it was guilt because I was Catholic and having sex with birth control and outside of marriage. Oh. Nice. I lived with the pain and just figured that was how sex was until another, very compassionate, Dr ask me if I had pain during sex and told me the reason why and how to avoid it. — Cyberhugs, DianeW
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Very interesting…when "pelvic pain" is mentioned, does this mean severe > menstrual cramps or chronic pain? > Borrowed from alt.support.mult-sclerosis: > Endometriosis > Copyright 2002 Immunotherapy Weekly via NewsRx.com and NewsRx.net > Immunotherapy Weekly > October 23, 2002 > ENDOMETRIOSIS: Disorder associated with wide range of diseases > U.S. researchers report in the journal Human Reproduction that women with > endometriosis are significantly more likely than other women to suffer > from > a number of additional distressing or disabling conditions. > These include a variety of autoimmune diseases, allergies, asthma, > hypothyroidism, chronic fatigue syndrome and fibromyalgia. > Their findings are from the first population-based study in the world to > investigate whether a range of other disorders are more prevalent in women > with endometriosis, which affects an estimated 8-10% of women of > reproductive age. > The results – which confirmed there was typically a 10-year delay between > onset of symptoms and a diagnosis of endometriosis – have prompted the > researchers to urge doctors, especially those taking care of adolescents, > to > consider a diagnosis of endometriosis in girls and women complaining of > pelvic pain and to watch out for other potentially serious conditions in > these patients. The research team from the National Institute of Child > Health and Human Development in Bethesda, Maryland, the School of Public > Health and Health Services at George Washington University in Washington, > DC, and the Endometriosis Association in Milwaukee, carried out and > analyzed > a survey of 3680 members of the Endometriosis Association, 90% of whom > were > of reproductive age. All the women had surgically diagnosed endometriosis. > They found that among these women: > *20% had more than one other disease. > *Up to 31% of those with coexisting diseases had also been diagnosed with > either fibromyalgia or chronic fatigue syndrome and some of these > additionally had other autoimmune or endocrine disease. > *Chronic fatigue syndrome was more than a hundred times more common than > in > the female U.S. population generally. > *Hypothyroidism (under-active thyroid gland) was seven times more common. > *Fibromyalgia was twice as common. > *The autoimmune inflammatory diseases – systemic lupus erythematosus, > Sjogren syndrome and rheumatoid arthritis, and also multiple sclerosis, > occurred more frequently. > *Rates of allergic and atopic conditions such as asthma and eczema were > higher – e.g., 61% of the endometriosis sufferers had allergies compared > with 18% of the U.S. general population, and 12% had asthma compared with > 5%. If a woman had endometriosis plus an endocrine disease the figure rose > to 72% and it was 88% if she had endometriosis plus fibromyalgia or > chronic > fatigue syndrome. > *Two-thirds of the survey subjects reported that relatives also had either > diagnosed or suspected endometriosis, confirming research that suggested > there was a familial tendency. > "As well as finding an increased prevalence of this wide range of diseases > and conditions among women with endometriosis, we found that they reported > significant pain and disability and, very worryingly, that there was > typically a 10-year delay between the onset of pelvic pain and diagnosis," > said lead investigator Ninet Sinaii, from the National Institute of Child > Health and Human Development. > Coinvestigator Dr. Pamela Stratton pointed out that, "Since women appear > to > develop symptoms shortly after the onset of their periods and are not > diagnosed for years, we don’t know whether endometriosis actually occurs > at > menarche as others have reported or whether it develops over time. It’s > also > unclear whether early treatment could prevent chronic pelvic pain from > taking hold. It is vital, therefore, that attempts should be made to > diagnose and treat endometriosis in adolescents." > Sinaii said there were a number of limitations to the study, which could > potentially introduce bias, including the relatively young age of the > respondents, the fact that they were predominantly white, well-educated > and > members of a support group (therefore possibly atypical), problems with > misinterpreting questions, recognizing disease names, and so on. > Therefore, the researchers carried out a sensitivity analysis. This > confirmed that even if the disease prevalence was underestimated in the > general population and overestimated in the study sample, the rates > reported > in women with endometriosis were still significantly higher. > "These differences appear real," said Sinaii. > She said the study was the first to provide data on the characteristics > and > coexisting states of women with pain from endometriosis. > "Women with endometriosis frequently suffer from autoimmune inflammatory > diseases, hypothyroidism, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, > allergies > and asthma. It is evident that women with pelvic pain are not diagnosed as > having endometriosis for many years, suggesting that physicians, > especially > those taking care of adolescents, should consider the diagnosis (High > rates > of autoimmune and endocrine disorders, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue > syndrome and atopic diseases among women with endometriosis: a survey > analysis. Hum Reprod, 2002;17(10):2715-2724). > "These findings also suggest a strong association between endometriosis > and > autoimmune disorders and indicate the need to consider the coexistence of > other conditions in women with endometriosis," she concluded. > This article was prepared by Immunotherapy Weekly editors from staff and > other reports. > http://www.NewsRx.net > — > Brought to you by Cowboy and Paul Jones. See Paul Jones website at > www.mult-sclerosis.org for this article and many more.
Very interesting…when "pelvic pain" is mentioned, does this mean severe menstrual cramps or chronic pain?
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Borrowed from alt.support.mult-sclerosis: > Endometriosis > Copyright 2002 Immunotherapy Weekly via NewsRx.com and NewsRx.net > Immunotherapy Weekly > October 23, 2002 > ENDOMETRIOSIS: Disorder associated with wide range of diseases > U.S. researchers report in the journal Human Reproduction that women with > endometriosis are significantly more likely than other women to suffer from > a number of additional distressing or disabling conditions. > These include a variety of autoimmune diseases, allergies, asthma, > hypothyroidism, chronic fatigue syndrome and fibromyalgia. > Their findings are from the first population-based study in the world to > investigate whether a range of other disorders are more prevalent in women > with endometriosis, which affects an estimated 8-10% of women of > reproductive age. > The results – which confirmed there was typically a 10-year delay between > onset of symptoms and a diagnosis of endometriosis – have prompted the > researchers to urge doctors, especially those taking care of adolescents, to > consider a diagnosis of endometriosis in girls and women complaining of > pelvic pain and to watch out for other potentially serious conditions in > these patients. The research team from the National Institute of Child > Health and Human Development in Bethesda, Maryland, the School of Public > Health and Health Services at George Washington University in Washington, > DC, and the Endometriosis Association in Milwaukee, carried out and analyzed > a survey of 3680 members of the Endometriosis Association, 90% of whom were > of reproductive age. All the women had surgically diagnosed endometriosis. > They found that among these women: > *20% had more than one other disease. > *Up to 31% of those with coexisting diseases had also been diagnosed with > either fibromyalgia or chronic fatigue syndrome and some of these > additionally had other autoimmune or endocrine disease. > *Chronic fatigue syndrome was more than a hundred times more common than in > the female U.S. population generally. > *Hypothyroidism (under-active thyroid gland) was seven times more common. > *Fibromyalgia was twice as common. > *The autoimmune inflammatory diseases – systemic lupus erythematosus, > Sjogren syndrome and rheumatoid arthritis, and also multiple sclerosis, > occurred more frequently. > *Rates of allergic and atopic conditions such as asthma and eczema were > higher – e.g., 61% of the endometriosis sufferers had allergies compared > with 18% of the U.S. general population, and 12% had asthma compared with > 5%. If a woman had endometriosis plus an endocrine disease the figure rose > to 72% and it was 88% if she had endometriosis plus fibromyalgia or chronic > fatigue syndrome. > *Two-thirds of the survey subjects reported that relatives also had either > diagnosed or suspected endometriosis, confirming research that suggested > there was a familial tendency. > "As well as finding an increased prevalence of this wide range of diseases > and conditions among women with endometriosis, we found that they reported > significant pain and disability and, very worryingly, that there was > typically a 10-year delay between the onset of pelvic pain and diagnosis," > said lead investigator Ninet Sinaii, from the National Institute of Child > Health and Human Development. > Coinvestigator Dr. Pamela Stratton pointed out that, "Since women appear to > develop symptoms shortly after the onset of their periods and are not > diagnosed for years, we don’t know whether endometriosis actually occurs at > menarche as others have reported or whether it develops over time. It’s also > unclear whether early treatment could prevent chronic pelvic pain from > taking hold. It is vital, therefore, that attempts should be made to > diagnose and treat endometriosis in adolescents." > Sinaii said there were a number of limitations to the study, which could > potentially introduce bias, including the relatively young age of the > respondents, the fact that they were predominantly white, well-educated and > members of a support group (therefore possibly atypical), problems with > misinterpreting questions, recognizing disease names, and so on. > Therefore, the researchers carried out a sensitivity analysis. This > confirmed that even if the disease prevalence was underestimated in the > general population and overestimated in the study sample, the rates reported > in women with endometriosis were still significantly higher. > "These differences appear real," said Sinaii. > She said the study was the first to provide data on the characteristics and > coexisting states of women with pain from endometriosis. > "Women with endometriosis frequently suffer from autoimmune inflammatory > diseases, hypothyroidism, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, allergies > and asthma. It is evident that women with pelvic pain are not diagnosed as > having endometriosis for many years, suggesting that physicians, especially > those taking care of adolescents, should consider the diagnosis (High rates > of autoimmune and endocrine disorders, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue > syndrome and atopic diseases among women with endometriosis: a survey > analysis. Hum Reprod, 2002;17(10):2715-2724). > "These findings also suggest a strong association between endometriosis and > autoimmune disorders and indicate the need to consider the coexistence of > other conditions in women with endometriosis," she concluded. > This article was prepared by Immunotherapy Weekly editors from staff and > other reports. > http://www.NewsRx.net > — > Brought to you by Cowboy and Paul Jones. See Paul Jones website at > www.mult-sclerosis.org for this article and many more.
>Does anyone know any alternatives to taking Danazol for the treatment of >severe endometriosis. >Also any ideas on alternative ways of falling pregnant. (Apart from the >obvious answers :->) >have not been able to obtain any literature. >Any help would be appreciated. >Thanks..Petra
Petra hello there, This is a pretty big subject to respond meaningfully and briefly. I have had a relation (by marriage) (and ‘had’ because their treatment has worked) who had this problem. Really you would be best try and contact a _local_ support group. _IF_ there is not such a thing ‘there’ then email me and I’ll see what can be done from this end. mr t.a.t. vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv Resinfo, 48, High Street, Newport, Isle of Wight. PO30 1SE (U.K.)
Does anyone know any alternatives to taking Danazol for the treatment of severe endometriosis. I had surgery in April and have been taking it since. The longer I take it the worse the side effects are. Cramps, dizziness, headaches, eye problems, etc. I am meant to continue to take it for another month at least. My doctor writes of these side effects as something I have to endure because of my disease. Also any ideas on alternative ways of falling pregnant. (Apart from the obvious answers :->) The three months after going off Danazol are the most likely time for me to be able to fall pregnant. As stats say the pregnancy rate in my situation is around 45% I want to optimise my chances. I have heard about high zinc and high protein diets for improving fertility but have not been able to obtain any literature. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks Petra wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww www ** Just A ? From The Bottom Of The World ** mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm mmm
I suffered from this condition from 14-27 and was told when my first child was born that I would never have another one. Guess what – 5 years later I had a miracle and named her Jaimie! I underwent hormone therapy, surgery to remove the transplants (both of which were failures) and at age 27 I just gave up and had the uterus and one ovary removed. I still have endometrial transplants on my bowel and bladder which they were unable to remove. My surgeon warned me his success rate for getting it all was only 90% but when he got in there he was overwhelmed with the amount and only got about 80%. There are drugs available but I was unable to take them. The advice I was given before I had my first child was if I wanted children, I’d better try soon so I did. If your friend does conceive, the good news is that the symptoms go away during pregnancy. The bad news is they return with a vengence after the delivery. I was told recently that endometriosis occurs most often in women who have yeast problems. I don’t know if that is true – it seems nearly everything is being blamed on yeast. It might be worth a try to eliminate causes of yeast infection. I sympathize with your friend, the pain I had was the worst nightmare of my life. Unless one has experienced it they couldn’t possibly understand. I hope her mate is understanding – it gets worse during certain times during the cycle but never goes away completely. Has she tried surgery to remove the transplants? If she has a good surgeon it can be done. Good luck to your friend. Linda — V.P. Central MO Home Business Association There’s No Business Like Home Business!
My name is Elizabeth Hunt and I’m a senior at Brown UNiversity. I am preparing an informational booklet on endometriosis for the National Women’s Health Network( it’s for a class). So far, I’ve collected a lot of information from medical journals, but I really appreciated your personal insight. If you need any information or wish to share some with me, I’d love it! Also, if you could elaborate on your story, please do, it would be perfect for the "Perspectives" section of the booklet. The final product will be informational. readable and accessible to women of all racial, ethnic and socioeconomic backgrounds. It is intended for women who have been diagnosed with endometriosis, or have been diagnosed as infertile and have questions about endo. If you know of any support groups that I could contact on-line, that would be super. Thanks again for writing. Elizabeth Hunt P.S. where are you located? I’m in Rhode Island. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> There’s No Business Like Home Business!
Does anyone have any information regarding endometriosis and natural remedies that are effective for treating this condition?
>Does anyone have any information regarding endometriosis and natural >remedies that are effective for treating this condition?
From my hard disk: I don’t have any citations on this topic, but I would like to share an experience. My daughter has always had very painful periods. Time after time, she has gone to the emergency ward to be given one drug or another to quell the pain. About 2 years ago, she had settled into a routine of taking Tylenol with codeine for most of the time, and morphine for the one or two days that were the worst. On the basis of some of my research, and in spite of gastroenterologist who insisted she didn’t have celiac disease, I convinced her that a gluten free diet was worth trying. Her GP, having observed the results, has diagnosed her as gluten intolerant. Several things resulted: She no longer takes morphine. She still takes the occasional tylenol during her period, but she has worked 12 hour shifts all the way through her period. This is a girl who had difficulty putting in an 8 hour shift before going gluten-free. Now to the interesting part: The doctors began with suggesting that the pain she was in was due to becoming sexually active so young……seventeen is not that young! The next diagnosis was clymidia (sp?). There were problems with that diagnosis. Then she underwent a surgical procedure where they make an incision in the abdomen, and go in with a tube with a magnifying glass on it. Guess what? They found endometriosis. Well, nothing much helped until the gluten-free diet. Even the pain killers were losing the ability to keep the pain in check. My daughter is a young woman in her early twenties. She has been victimized in one sense, but many people go their whole lives in that pain, so I don’t want to be too critical. What I do want to suggest is that anyone who has a diagnosis of endometriosis, or is troubled by very painful periods, might be very pleasantly surprised by the results of a gluten-free diet. I am not a medical person. I am a father with celiac disease who believes that all first degree relatives of a celiac should be given serum antibody tests for endomysium antibodies. I also believe that if male doctors experienced painful menstruation every 28 days or so, much more research would be done on that issue. I think they would discover celiac disease in many cases. I hope that is helpful. Sincerely, Ron Hoggan For more information on celiac disease this page is a list of annotated The Gluten-Free Page: http://www.panix.com/~donwiss/ Don. Here’s a story from a woman that read Ron’s article that I posted just above this: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I found your article interesting. I too suffered debilitating periods almost from the beginning. At age 21 I was told it was all in my head, see a psychiatrist. I was also told I would probably never have children, due to the severe damage to my phallopian tubes. I have 2 children to prove otherwise. At age 29 (after many laparoscopies) I had a hysterectomy, after nearly hemmoraging for several months. 11 months later they had to remove my left ovary, it had adhered to the lining of my abdomen, again causing debilitating pain. At age 34, I got so sick all I could do was go to work, go home and sleep, I had another laparoscopy. No signs of endometriosis, so the doctor referred me to a pain clinic, where they were going to deaden the nerves. My family doctor said I must have chronic abdominal wall pain, due to so many abdominal surgeries, she referred me to a GI who specialized in that disorder. After taking my history, and months of testing, at age 35 I was diagnosed with Celiac Disease. Now I wonder, did I really have endometriosis? The hysterectomy took care of the pain for 9 months, then the removal of one ovary took care of the pain for many years, now the gluten free diet took care of the pain forever. Thanks for the article.
Y>Nothing has been found to stop endo 100%. The closest thing to a cure is Y>to be castrated (complete hysterectomy – ovaries removed) and not take HRT. Y> That will cause an immediate menopause (nightmare) but will prevent the Y>endo from growing and spreading. And even then some women still suffer the Y>pain of the adhesions and scar tissue. – Carol ….. — Close. The medical literature even describes some men who had endo as well, so removing the uterus, ovaries, and no HRT is still not the answer in all cases. It’s a complex disease, and while estrogen (or estrogen-like substances) are generally believed to be causative or contributing elements, there may be other factors involved as well that need to be resolved. — * Ron Roth
It is as silly to think that there is one cause of endo as it is to to think there is one cure. Diet change will help some. Homeopathy will help some. Castor oil packs will help some. Supplements will help some. Treatment has to be patient-centered, not disease-centered. Humans are different, and so are their causes and cures for any disease, including endo. That is the beauty and curse of humanity. Greg Nigh National College of Naturopathic Medicine, for whom I do not pretend to speak.
Uh Carol, You should check out things before you agree with an accuser. If you stopped by my site you would have found I have absolutely nothing that I make money from. Absolutely nothing. H. Frankel is a made up name that was created solely for the purpose of publicly harassing me, as I reported someone promoting his Amazon.com associates web page (where the owner of such a page gets paid when someone buys a book from them). Matter-of-fact my pages cost me money, which I just pay out of my own packet. Don. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >That don’t surprise me in the least. Just another spammer with his own >agenda. Had another spammer on the endo NG trying to claim that colidal >silver (sp?) CURED endo…. sheeeesh! They prey on the sick and desperate. >– >Carol ….. >Taxidermist Window: We really know our stuff. >~~~ }<(((0> ~~~ }<{{{o> ~~~ }<(((0> ~~~ }<{{{o> ~~~ }<(((0> >: Mr. Wiss propogates his gluten free diet, but has a vested interest in >doing >: so. Thinly disguised commercialism at least. >: : Howard >:
>Note: See the endo NG’s for more information and support of all types >concerning this condition.
The endo group is a bunch of women whining and seeking sympathy. They don’t have any answers (other than surgery), and are closed minded to alternatives. To them the solution is more money should be spend by researchers trying to solve the problem. But, a little thinking about evolution and how natural selection works would make them realize that endo is a new problem. A problem of civilization. Natural selection does an excellent job of seeing that the ones without medical problems survive and reproduce more than the less fit. Even the smallest improvement will eventually spread to all. Endo hits its victims young. Often before the patient has had a chance to reproduce. Such a disorder would have been quickly cleared out. Now, what in civilization has changed that endo has now appeared? I’m sure one can come up with a bunch of suggestions, but high on the list is the fact that today’s diet is very different than what humans evolved to eat. They did not eat food chemicals (e.g. MSG, aspartame, colorings, and preservatives), grains, dairy, most beans, vegetable seed oils (olive is a fruit oil), refined sugar, vinegar, peanuts, added salt, and foods that require technology to make them edible. They did eat: vegetables (esp green leafy ones), meat, fish, eggs, nuts, seeds, berries, fruit, and roots. Now, no money can be made from using dietary intervention, so no one will spend the funds to study this. Money is made from treatments, and that is what the medical community specializes in. So the question I have, is why is the endo community so adamantly opposed to trying out diet? Of all the various disorders with a highly likely diet connection this group is the most opposed, but with the most to gain? Don (at panix com).
> : I am being treated for severe dysmenorrhea by a homeopath > : myself. So far it has been the only thing that has helped. > *** And what else did you try?
Herbs, drugs, chiro. For how long? I don’t know, I’ve had the condition for about 7 years. > Did you have a lap’ to see > if it was endo?
Yes. Nothing showed up, which doesn’t really rule out endo, but most likely it is not. > What were you diagnosed as having (by lab test)?
What lab tests would be appropriate? Neither my gyn or MD have really done lab tests. I tried to see an endocrinologist, but they would not refer me to one. >Do you > know what’s causing your pain?
Uterine cramps! Beyond that I have no idea, nor do my doctors.
> It is as silly to think that there is one cause of endo as it is to to think > there is one cure. Diet change will help some. Homeopathy will help some. > Castor oil packs will help some. Supplements will help some. Treatment has to > be patient-centered, not disease-centered.
If you had paid attention in your homeopathy courses, you would know that homeopathy treats the patient, not the disease. It is highly individualized. I think it is safe to say that supplements, castor oil packs and diet change will only help most endo patients slightly, if at all. > Humans are different, and so are their causes and cures for any disease, > including endo.
Yes, I agree, and you should know that homeopathy is the only healing modality that takes individual differences into account. I am only saying that endo people might find it very worthwhile to seek out a good classical homeopath. Treatment may take a while, and it is not cheap. But personally, I would have done anything and paid any price at all to not be in so much pain. I not only have less pain, (and will eventually have none) but I have more energy and I can think more clearly.
: : : : > : I am being treated for severe dysmenorrhea by a homeopath : > : myself. So far it has been the only thing that has helped. : > : > *** And what else did you try? : : Herbs, drugs, chiro. $$$ Don’t be evasive please. Which Herbs and drugs did not help? There is no drug that helps endo for any length of time. Chiro’ cannot remove the implants and adhesions of endo nor can herbs or drugs. : : For how long? : : I don’t know, I’ve had the condition for about 7 years. $$$ You don’t know how long you took the drugs? : : > Did you have a lap’ to see : > if it was endo? : : Yes. Nothing showed up, which doesn’t really rule out endo, : but most likely it is not. $$$ Then you’re a lucky lady! :o) : : > What were you diagnosed as having (by lab test)? : : What lab tests would be appropriate? Neither my gyn or MD : have really done lab tests. I tried to see an : endocrinologist, but they would not refer me to one. $$$ He would know the tests (endocrinologist) and it may pay for you to pay out of your own pocket to find the cause of you pain. The tests done on myself (at Vanderbilt U.H.) were a sonogram, blood tests, x-rays, a pelvic, urine and stool (remember they were looking for the cause and left no stone unturned). It was almost 20 years ago so I am sure I forgot a few. I spent 2 afternoons there having work done. : : >Do you : > know what’s causing your pain? : : Uterine cramps! Beyond that I have no idea, nor do my : doctors. $$$ They told me (earlier – pre tests) that prostaglandins cause the Uterus to clamp down and that causes the pain. The more prost’ the more the pain. Some women also get loose bowels from all the prost’ they produce at that time of the month. An anti-prostiglandin may help you. Something like Naprosin or even strong Midol. — Carol ….. Scientist’s Door: Gone Fission. ~~~ }<(((0> ~~~ }<{{{o> ~~~ }<(((0> ~~~ }<{{{o> ~~~ }<(((0> :
: Close. The medical literature even describes some men who had endo : as well, so removing the uterus, ovaries, and no HRT is still not : the answer in all cases. *** That seems to be the closest they get to relief (castration and as little Estrogen as possible). I also read that it has been found in Autopsied infants. Already the uterine tissue is outside the uterus. It’s a complex disease, and while estrogen : (or estrogen-like substances) are generally believed to be causative : or contributing elements, there may be other factors involved as well : that need to be resolved. *** Removing the Estrogen that stimulates this tissue to grow seems the best course at this point. There are drugs to suppress estrogen production but many women are made very sick by them. — Carol ….. Scientist’s Door: Gone Fission. ~~~ }<(((0> ~~~ }<{{{o> ~~~ }<(((0> ~~~ }<{{{o> ~~~ }<(((0> : — : * Ron Roth : : :
If that’s true then I apologize. I have skipped most websites as they are such a waste of time. They’re either MLM sites hawking wild cures and looking for salespeople to scam or they’re sites like the parasite ones I saw….. all garbage! I did skip checking your site due to these reasons. OTOH there is no 100% cure for endo as log as you’re alive. — Carol ….. Scientist’s Door: Gone Fission. ~~~ }<(((0> ~~~ }<{{{o> ~~~ }<(((0> ~~~ }<{{{o> ~~~ }<(((0> : Uh Carol, You should check out things before you agree with an accuser. If : you stopped by my site you would have found I have absolutely nothing that : I make money from. Absolutely nothing.Thinly disguised commercialism at least. : >: : Howard : >: : :
: : The endo group is a bunch of women whining and seeking sympathy. They don’t : have any answers (other than surgery), and are closed minded to : alternatives. *** That is both untrue and unkind to say. I followed both groups for a year. Many have tried all kinds of quack cures and NONE were helped or cured. Also I belonged to several support groups in the Town where I live and endo was one such group. Many women wasted $$$ on worthless treatments because ESTROGEN is the culprit that keeps this disease going. To them the solution is more money should be spend by : researchers trying to solve the problem. $$$ Right. What’s wrong with that? A cure would be wonderful. Are you saying all research should be stopped on all diseases or just this one that causes so much agony to women? : : But, a little thinking about evolution and how natural selection works : would make them realize that endo is a new problem. A problem of : civilization. *** Many diseases are a problem of civilization. And many go back to the beginning of written history and before. Natural selection does an excellent job of seeing that the : ones without medical problems survive and reproduce more than the less fit. *** And since endo attacks most women in their 20’s they’ve already reproduced. : Even the smallest improvement will eventually spread to all. Endo hits its : victims young. Often before the patient has had a chance to reproduce. Such : a disorder would have been quickly cleared out. *** That is totally wrong. Most of the women in my support group were mothers. A few were sterile due to the disease. My Grandmother had 6 children and endo. My Mother had 2 and endo and I had one and endo. You are spreading wrong information. Some gals as young as 13 have been found with the disease but most don’t have problems until their 20’s. : : Now, what in civilization has changed that endo has now appeared? I’m sure : one can come up with a bunch of suggestions, but high on the list is the : fact that today’s diet is very different than what humans evolved to eat. *** That depends on what society you’re talking about and where they live and what they have access too. : They did not eat food chemicals (e.g. MSG, aspartame, colorings, and : preservatives), grains, dairy, most beans, vegetable seed oils (olive is a : fruit oil), refined sugar, vinegar, peanuts, added salt, and foods that : require technology to make them edible. *** Many women have never seen the foods you mention and endo is found in every land on the Globe. Even in remote African Villages and isolated groups of people in South America. : : They did eat: vegetables (esp green leafy ones), meat, fish, eggs, nuts, : seeds, berries, fruit, and roots. *** And most of the worlds women still do (as they’re in 3rd world nations). They never saw a coldcut or fake sweetener etc. : : Now, no money can be made from using dietary intervention, so no one will : spend the funds to study this. Money is made from treatments, and that is : what the medical community specializes in. *** That’s conspiracy-SPEAK. If diet prevented endo they would have found societies free of this disease and so far that is not so. Every society known has victims. The first mention of endo at Autopsy was in the 1800’s before all this junk food hit the scene. : : So the question I have, is why is the endo community so adamantly opposed : to trying out diet? *** Because every diet know to man is eaten somewhere on earth and so far every Nation has endo sufferers. Why don’t you run your own study with say 50 endo women. See what happens and let us know. Of all the various disorders with a highly likely diet : connection this group is the most opposed, but with the most to gain? *** What makes you think that? Do you have verifiable proof it’s diet caused? Do you know of any Nation free of endo? — Carol ….. Scientist’s Door: Gone Fission. ~~~ }<(((0> ~~~ }<{{{o> ~~~ }<(((0> ~~~ }<{{{o> ~~~ }<(((0> : : Don (at panix com). :
It is difficult to discuss the pros and cons of various modalities with anyone who believes that there is *one* modality with all pros and no cons. > If you had paid attention in your homeopathy courses, you > would know that homeopathy treats the patient, not the > disease.
I did quite well in my first two homeopathy courses, thank you, and I have every intention of doing equally as well in my next three courses. Homeopathy doesn’t treat the disease per se, but it is a stretch to say it treats the patient. Homeopathy treats a constellation of symptoms. If two people of like constitution manifest the same constellation, they are treated the same. Homeopathy treats the patient to the extent that a patient is the sum of their symptoms. > It is highly individualized.
I’ve had a number of homeopathic intakes done on me, and I have done them on others as well. I am no expert in that modality, but I am also not a stranger to it. I have a good feel for how individualized it is, and how it compares with other modalities, many of which I have received training in. > I think it is safe to > say that supplements, castor oil packs and diet change will > only help most endo patients slightly, if at all.
Tell me: how many endo patients do you know who have used regular castor oil packs? How many used them along with diet changes? Along with supplements? And along with, yes, homeopathy? How many did all this under the care of a physician who is trained in their most efficacious application? As you surely know, Hahnemann was no stranger to the concept of removing the cause of illness in addition to homeopathy. If you want, check footnote "a" to paragraph 260 in the Organon of Medicine. He lists many things which the patient should avoid. Many of these are dietary. Ergo, diet change *goes along with* homeopathy. Hahnemann didn’t think the remedy alone was sufficient, not so long as these "obstacles to cure" remain. Perhaps you are aware of some homeopathic principles which Hahnemann overlooked. > Humans are different, and so are their causes and cures for any disease, > including endo. > Yes, I agree, and you should know that homeopathy is the > only healing modality that takes individual differences into > account.
If homeopathy works for you, use it. But it doesn’t work for everyone. It may be difficult to accept, and maybe it is because there are incompetent homeopaths out there giving the therapy a bad name. But I know of physicians with good success in managing endo using the modalities I listed: diet, castor oil, supplements, and yes, sometimes, homeopathy. It is simply ridiculous to say that homeopathy is the only healing modality that takes individual differences into account. In fact, this is most certainly not true. Doing a dietary assessment is every bit as rigorous as a homeopathic intake, looking at everything from personality types to environments to all sorts of food allergies, symptomology, etc. In fact, every naturopathic modality takes individual differences into account. > I am only saying that endo people might find it very > worthwhile to seek out a good classical homeopath.
And I agree that they *might* find it worthwhile, because homeopathy can be very helpful. But you stated that homeopathy is the *only* therapy of significant value in treating endo. Physicians I have heard discussing the topic have found otherwise. Greg Nigh National College of Naturopathic Medicine, for whom I do not pretend to speak
Nothing has been found to stop endo 100%. The closest thing to a cure is to be castrated (complete hysterectomy – ovaries removed) and not take HRT. That will cause an immediate menopause (nightmare) but will prevent the endo from growing and spreading. And even then some women still suffer the pain of the adhesions and scar tissue. — Carol ….. ~~~ }<(((0> ~~~ }<{{{o> ~~~ }<(((0> ~~~ }<{{{o> ~~~ }<(((0> : Urgent! Read the book YOUR OWN PERFECT MEDICINE before she is used as a : experiment again. T.
That don’t surprise me in the least. Just another spammer with his own agenda. Had another spammer on the endo NG trying to claim that colidal silver (sp?) CURED endo…. sheeeesh! They prey on the sick and desperate. — Carol ….. Taxidermist Window: We really know our stuff. ~~~ }<(((0> ~~~ }<{{{o> ~~~ }<(((0> ~~~ }<{{{o> ~~~ }<(((0> : Mr. Wiss propogates his gluten free diet, but has a vested interest in doing : so. Thinly disguised commercialism at least. : : Howard :
: I know of someone who was diagnosed w/endo by laparoscopy. : She saw a classical homeopath 5 years ago, and has had no : pain or endo symptoms at all since then. *** You can’t remove endo except by surgery (and they sill cannot remove every last cell of it) or some type of estrogen suppression. Don’t believe all the testimonials you hear – do a search on the net and you’ll understand why no herb will "cure" this disease. : : I am being treated for severe dysmenorrhea by a homeopath : myself. So far it has been the only thing that has helped. *** And what else did you try? For how long? Did you have a lap’ to see if it was endo? What were you diagnosed as having (by lab test)? Do you know what’s causing your pain? Note: See the endo NG’s for more information and support of all types concerning this condition. — Carol ….. Taxidermist Window: We really know our stuff. ~~~ }<(((0> ~~~ }<{{{o> ~~~ }<(((0> ~~~ }<{{{o> ~~~ }<(((0> : : k birney :
I know of someone who was diagnosed w/endo by laparoscopy. She saw a classical homeopath 5 years ago, and has had no pain or endo symptoms at all since then. I am being treated for severe dysmenorrhea by a homeopath myself. So far it has been the only thing that has helped. k birney – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Nothing has been found to stop endo 100%. The closest thing to a cure is > to be castrated (complete hysterectomy – ovaries removed) and not take HRT. > That will cause an immediate menopause (nightmare) but will prevent the > endo from growing and spreading. And even then some women still suffer the > pain of the adhesions and scar tissue. > — > Carol ….. > ~~~ }<(((0> ~~~ }<{{{o> ~~~ }<(((0> ~~~ }<{{{o> ~~~ }<(((0> > : Urgent! Read the book YOUR OWN PERFECT MEDICINE before she is used as a > : experiment again. T.
> : > : On the basis of some of my research, and in spite of gastroenterologist > : who insisted she didn’t have celiac disease, I convinced her that a > gluten > : free diet was worth trying. > :
Mr. Wiss propogates his gluten free diet, but has a vested interest in doing so. Thinly disguised commercialism at least. Howard
: : How would you know? You have stated you have only been here a short time, 3 : years. : $$$ I was THERE when they ran him off. It was 2 years ago. What do you consider a long time ago? The year 1? : : Where did you get this information?– $$$ There are 2 endo NG’s on Usenet – and do a Dejanews search for yourself. You obviously don’t have a clue what endo is. — Carol ….. Endo sufferer for over 20 years…. ~~~ }<(((0> ~~~ }<{{{o> ~~~ }<(((0> ~~~ }<{{{o> ~~~ }<(((0>
I would like to find out who has said that dairy causes endometriosis and where they read that information. All the books I have read and all the doctors I have spoken to about endo. say that too much estrogen or estrogen related problems cause endo. We still may not know exactly what causes endo…but all I can say is if I eat dairy foods, I get bloated…when I get bloated, I am in pain. If I take "Beano" before eating dairy then I don’t get bloated. Therefore I don’t feel pain. Eating fattening foods and red meats also causes more problems with endo sufferers (at least for me and all the other sufferers I know of). When I first talked to my doctor about my pain he said that he thought it may be endo. The very first question he asked me was "Do you drink anything with caffein?". After surgery he found endo lesions and he told me to stay away from caffein. Well, just a month ago I began taking some diet pills that had caffein in them…Within 2 weeks I began having so much pain I could barely walk around. I stopped taking those pills and the pain is finally going away. But I still eat ice cream. I have heard from a nutritionalist before that a gluten free diet would be helpful. Maybe so. Maybe more endo sufferers should try it and find out if it does help. Maybe dairy free diets help. But for me…I find that deleting caffein from my diet and bad fat foods helps tremendously. Teyana
Urgent! Read the book YOUR OWN PERFECT MEDICINE before she is used as a experiment again. T. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, I’m new to this group but have been doing a large amount of reading > in the area of alternative medicine. The problem is, I’m having trouble > getting information on endometriosis wrt treatments, possible cures (if > there are any) etc. My sister has been suffering for 5 years and has > had 3 surgeries already. She is only 25 years old! She is married now > and would love to have children. At this time, her specialist is > sending her to another specialist who has to decide whether she can > endure yet another surgery as her condition is bad right now. They are > trying a hormone treatment right now to induce menopause and that > treatment isn’t working. Following surgery the plan is to use fertility > drugs. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, > Jeff
> This man was run off the endo NG a long time ago with endless posts about > Gluten and endo.
How would you know? You have stated you have only been here a short time, 3 years. > There is no connection whatsoever. Removing all glutens > have been tried and have made no difference in the sufferers endo pain.
Where did you get this information?– – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Carol ….. > Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach him to use > the Net and he wont bother you for weeks. > ~~~ }<(((0> ~~~ }<{{{o> ~~~ }<(((0> ~~~ }<{{{o> ~~~ }<(((
This man was run off the endo NG a long time ago with endless posts about Gluten and endo. There is no connection whatsoever. Removing all glutens have been tried and have made no difference in the sufferers endo pain. — Carol ….. Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach him to use the Net and he wont bother you for weeks. ~~~ }<(((0> ~~~ }<{{{o> ~~~ }<(((0> ~~~ }<{{{o> ~~~ }<(((0> : : On the basis of some of my research, and in spite of gastroenterologist : who insisted she didn’t have celiac disease, I convinced her that a gluten : free diet was worth trying. :
>Hi, I’m new to this group but have been doing a large amount of reading >in the area of alternative medicine. The problem is, I’m having trouble >getting information on endometriosis wrt treatments, possible cures (if >there are any) etc.
From my collection of files: I don’t have any citations on this topic, but I would like to share an experience. My daughter has always had very painful periods. Time after time, she has gone to the emergency ward to be given one drug or another to quell the pain. About 2 years ago, she had settled into a routine of taking Tylenol with codeine for most of the time, and morphine for the one or two days that were the worst. On the basis of some of my research, and in spite of gastroenterologist who insisted she didn’t have celiac disease, I convinced her that a gluten free diet was worth trying. Her GP, having observed the results, has diagnosed her as gluten intolerant. Several things resulted: She no longer takes morphine. She still takes the occasional tylenol during her period, but she has worked 12 hour shifts all the way through her period. This is a girl who had difficulty putting in an 8 hour shift before going gluten-free. Now to the interesting part: The doctors began with suggesting that the pain she was in was due to becoming sexually active so young……seventeen is not that young! The next diagnosis was clymidia (sp?). There were problems with that diagnosis. Then she underwent a surgical procedure where they make an incision in the abdomen, and go in with a tube with a magnifying glass on it. Guess what? They found endometriosis. Well, nothing much helped until the gluten-free diet. Even the pain killers were losing the ability to keep the pain in check. My daughter is a young woman in her early twenties. She has been victimized in one sense, but many people go their whole lives in that pain, so I don’t want to be too critical. What I do want to suggest is that anyone who has a diagnosis of endometriosis, or is troubled by very painful periods, might be very pleasantly surprised by the results of a gluten-free diet. I am not a medical person. I am a father with celiac disease who believes that all first degree relatives of a celiac should be given serum antibody tests for endomysium antibodies. I also believe that if male doctors experienced painful menstruation every 28 days or so, much more research would be done on that issue. I think they would discover celiac disease in many cases. I hope that is helpful. Sincerely, Ron Hoggan http://www.panix.com/~donwiss/hoggan/ For more information on celiac disease this page is a list of annotated The Gluten-Free Page: http://www.panix.com/~donwiss/ Don. Here’s a story from a woman that read Ron’s article that I posted just above this: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I found your article interesting. I too suffered debilitating periods almost from the beginning. At age 21 I was told it was all in my head, see a psychiatrist. I was also told I would probably never have children, due to the severe damage to my phallopian tubes. I have 2 children to prove otherwise. At age 29 (after many laparoscopies) I had a hysterectomy, after nearly hemmoraging for several months. 11 months later they had to remove my left ovary, it had adhered to the lining of my abdomen, again causing debilitating pain. At age 34, I got so sick all I could do was go to work, go home and sleep, I had another laparoscopy. No signs of endometriosis, so the doctor referred me to a pain clinic, where they were going to deaden the nerves. My family doctor said I must have chronic abdominal wall pain, due to so many abdominal surgeries, she referred me to a GI who specialized in that disorder. After taking my history, and months of testing, at age 35 I was diagnosed with Celiac Disease. Now I wonder, did I really have endometriosis? The hysterectomy took care of the pain for 9 months, then the removal of one ovary took care of the pain for many years, now the gluten free diet took care of the pain forever. Thanks for the article. Being on the no-milk mailing list I was curious if their was a connection between dairy and endometriosis. So I asked. I did get three responses. For the originals see: http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/CGI/wa.exe?A1=ind9711&L=no-milk In looking at some past posts I noted that Dan Twogood mentioned a connection between endometriosis and dairy. I am interested in learning more about this connection. For example, has anybody out there had success controlling their endo with a diary-free diet? > For example, has anybody out there had success controlling their >endo with a diary-free diet? YES! And not just "controlling" it completely but totally eliminating it! And since endometriosis can cause infertility for women and is often treated with a hysterectomy, kind of sad that nutrition therapy isn’t the first approach in medicine. For ten years I struggled with it and nearly gave in to the pressure to have a hysterectomy like the rest of the women in my family ("Its all a matter of genetics, dear"). After going dairy-free for 3 years I no longer have any problems at all, and in fact just gave birth in July to my son–something a few years ago I wouldn’t have dreamed of being possible. Don if you are looking for more info on this, John Robbins (of the Baskin Robbins family) wrote a bit about it in his book Reclaiming Our Health. Robbins rejected the family business and is a strong advocate for living dairy free. Kind of says something to me that a man who’s family fortunes are in the ice cream/dairy business would be one of the strongest advocates for a dairy free life style. It is important to distinguish the difference between controlling the *progression* of endometriosis and controlling the *symptoms* of endometriosis. There is no information which supports anything regarding the control of endometriosis *progression* with dietary modification. And, since endometriosis can only be assessed by surgery (laparoscopy, for example), one cannot presume that dietary modification truly "improves" the progression endometriosis unless surgery is done to show that. However, dairy products are sources of fatty acids that can make the body produce series 2 prostaglandins which are associated with endometriosis pain. So, by eliminating dairy products, one can reduce the amount of series 2 prostaglandins the body produces, which results in improvement of pain symptoms. So, the answer is twofold: yes, restriction of dairy products can help reduce the pain symptoms of endometriosis. When this approach is supplemented with sources of essential fatty acids in foods like fish oils and seed and nut oils, it can work even better at reducing the pain associated with endometriosis. But the progression of endometriosis is unlikely to be affected by restriction of dairy products. >>In looking at some past posts I noted that Dan Twogood mentioned a > connection between endometriosis and dairy. I am interested in learning > more about this connection. For example, has anybody out there had success > controlling their endo with a diary-free diet?<< > …So, the answer is twofold: yes, restriction of dairy products can help reduce > the pain symptoms of endometriosis. When this approach is supplemented with > sources of essential fatty acids in foods like fish oils and seed and nut oils, it can > work even better at reducing the pain associated with endometriosis. But > the progression of endometriosis is unlikely to be affected by restriction of > dairy products. > Lynda I disagree. That "answer" comes from the mentality that disease is something that just happens because of, I don’t know, genetic weaknesses, or just because. People who think this way (most doctors) are vehement about defending the notion that dietary manipulation may help, but won’t solve any health problems. I’m sorry, but I totally disagree. I have seen the "symptoms" of endometriosis go away many times. I have seen infertile women give birth after dairy foods were eliminated. To tell a patient "you’re really not better, you just seem that way," is habit based on theory, no proof, and shows the extreme attachment to dogma. To say that "it is unlikely that the progression of the disease will change" is consistent with that medical practice of dashing all hope. I believe in the opposite–ALWAYS give hope. The progression of endometriosis WILL stop, and I’m probably right. To suggest supplements goes further in the direction of error, in my opinion. Disease is not to due to the lack of anything in this country. Disease is due to excess. Treatment is elimination, not addition. But my philisophy is, if
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Hi, I’m new to this group but have been doing a large amount of reading in the area of alternative medicine. The problem is, I’m having trouble getting information on endometriosis wrt treatments, possible cures (if there are any) etc. My sister has been suffering for 5 years and has had 3 surgeries already. She is only 25 years old! She is married now and would love to have children. At this time, her specialist is sending her to another specialist who has to decide whether she can endure yet another surgery as her condition is bad right now. They are trying a hormone treatment right now to induce menopause and that treatment isn’t working. Following surgery the plan is to use fertility drugs. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Jeff
> Hi, I’m new to this group but have been doing a large amount of reading > in the area of alternative medicine. The problem is, I’m having trouble > getting information on endometriosis wrt treatments, possible cures (if > there are any) etc. My sister has been suffering for 5 years and has > had 3 surgeries already. She is only 25 years old! She is married now > and would love to have children. At this time, her specialist is > sending her to another specialist who has to decide whether she can > endure yet another surgery as her condition is bad right now. They are > trying a hormone treatment right now to induce menopause and that > treatment isn’t working. Following surgery the plan is to use fertility > drugs. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, > Jeff
Jeff, I, too, have endometriosis. There is an excellent newsgroup called "alt.support.endometriosis". They have a lot of advice and experience in the areas you need help in. We always love it when a man gets on and asks questions because it helps us know men do care. It is very painful. Please post the same question to them and see what the response is. You will get a lot. Especially emphasise the part about taking fertility drugs. I read some arguments about that on the endo newsgroup. What happens is….estrogen is the cause of endo…By taking fertility drugs your estrogen level increases drastically which may actually cause more problems….This is just what I have been reading. I also have found that if someone were to go into surgery (laparoscopy) they are really fertile right after. I had a friend with endo. She couldn’t get pregnant for 4 years. Finally she had surgery and within 3-4 weeks she got pregnant. Her baby is now born and very healthy. She did have a hard…hard…pregnancy though. But she is better now. There is no known "cure" for endo. Some people do get rid of it forever if they get pregnant. Others do not. We also have a higher risk of miscarriage. So if she is lucky enough to get pregnant she will probably need an excellent doctor who will work with her the whole pregnancy. Good luck…go to that other newsgroup. There is so much information that is useful. Teyana
Kelp is also supposed to be good for protection from toxins.
> Does anyone know of some alternative treatments for > Endometriosis? Particularly Endo at the stage 3 level which is > causing temporary infertility? > Please reply by email. > Thanks
If you are talking about detoxifying the body to get rid of chemical pollutants, why not give Essiac Tea a try? They have been having a very passionate discussion on the merits of Essiac tea a few articles up in this very newsgroup. If you think that this tea can help you, check with your doctor, but keep this information in mind: I sell Essiac Tea as a distributor for Enrich International. Enrich produces a full line of 100% natural health and beauty products. Our tea bears the name ‘Native Legend Tea’ but make no mistake-it is genuine Essiac Tea. Native Legend Tea may be mail-ordered (2nd day UPS) by calling 1-800-307-3366. Monday-Friday 9:30am-midnight. Let them know that Jonathan Maxwell in Delray Beach, Florida referred you. They will not take an order without that name.
Does anyone know of some alternative treatments for Endometriosis? Particularly Endo at the stage 3 level which is causing temporary infertility? Please reply by email. Thanks
Believe it or not, some cases of Endo are a result of "chemical estrogens" in the environment. These are byproducts of prolonged exposure to some pesticides, chlorine, petroleum products, etc. My friends in Watersmeet, Michigan drank water that was contaminated by a large DDT dumpsite, and you guessed it….endo and cancer are rampant in their comminity. If there is a possibility that the person you aretalking about has this kind of endo, dieting is highly recommended as these chemicals store in fat cells. Fish oil capsules were suggested. I will look up the rest and email or post for you if you want. I guess what I’m saying is she will need to try and detoxify if this was caused by a source of pollution while avoiding further contact with the pollutants. A water filter would come in handy to avoid chlorine if you’re in a city, and cut way back on meats that store pesticides in their fat cells avoiding more exposure. The Endometriosis (Society? Association?) in the Milwaukee area is beginning to look into this, also. Laura
>Does anyone know of some alternative treatments for >Endometriosis? Particularly Endo at the stage 3 level which is >causing temporary infertility?
From my files: I don’t have any citations on this topic, but I would like to share an experience. My daughter has always had very painful periods. Time after time, she has gone to the emergency ward to be given one drug or another to quell the pain. About 2 years ago, she had settled into a routine of taking Tylenol with codeine for most of the time, and morphine for the one or two days that were the worst. On the basis of some of my research, and in spite of gastroenterologist who insisted she didn’t have celiac disease, I convinced her that a gluten free diet was worth trying. Her GP, having observed the results, has diagnosed her as gluten intolerant. Several things resulted: She no longer takes morphine. She still takes the occasional tylenol during her period, but she has worked 12 hour shifts all the way through her period. This is a girl who had difficulty putting in an 8 hour shift before going gluten-free. Now to the interesting part: The doctors began with suggesting that the pain she was in was due to becoming sexually active so young……seventeen is not that young! The next diagnosis was clymidia (sp?). There were problems with that diagnosis. Then she underwent a surgical procedure where they make an incision in the abdomen, and go in with a tube with a magnifying glass on it. Guess what? They found endometriosis. Well, nothing much helped until the gluten-free diet. Even the pain killers were losing the ability to keep the pain in check. My daughter is a young woman in her early twenties. She has been victimized in one sense, but many people go their whole lives in that pain, so I don’t want to be too critical. What I do want to suggest is that anyone who has a diagnosis of endometriosis, or is troubled by very painful periods, might be very pleasantly surprised by the results of a gluten-free diet. I am not a medical person. I am a father with celiac disease who believes that all first degree relatives of a celiac should be given serum antibody tests for endomysium antibodies. I also believe that if male doctors experienced painful menstruation every 28 days or so, much more research would be done on that issue. I think they would discover celiac disease in many cases. I hope that is helpful. Sincerely, Ron Hoggan For more information on celiac disease this page is a list of annotated The Gluten-Free Page: http://www.panix.com/~donwiss/ Don. P.S.. Here’s a story from a woman that read Ron’s article that I posted just above this: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I found your article interesting. I too suffered debilitating periods almost from the beginning. At age 21 I was told it was all in my head, see a psychiatrist. I was also told I would probably never have children, due to the severe damage to my phallopian tubes. I have 2 children to prove otherwise. At age 29 (after many laparoscopies) I had a hysterectomy, after nearly hemmoraging for several months. 11 months later they had to remove my left ovary, it had adhered to the lining of my abdomen, again causing debilitating pain. At age 34, I got so sick all I could do was go to work, go home and sleep, I had another laparoscopy. No signs of endometriosis, so the doctor referred me to a pain clinic, where they were going to deaden the nerves. My family doctor said I must have chronic abdominal wall pain, due to so many abdominal surgeries, she referred me to a GI who specialized in that disorder. After taking my history, and months of testing, at age 35 I was diagnosed with Celiac Disease. Now I wonder, did I really have endometriosis? The hysterectomy took care of the pain for 9 months, then the removal of one ovary took care of the pain for many years, now the gluten free diet took care of the pain forever. Thanks for the article.
I would like to find out about an experimental treatment for endometriosis using aromatase inhibitors…any leads? — Darrell B Lazarus, PhD
There was an article about this in the April 1998 *Fertility and Sterility.* The abstract can be seen on the web site: http://www-east.elsevier.com/fert/rec_iss/6904toc.htm There has also been some discussion in the newsgroup alt.med.endometriosis and we would be happy to have your input on the subject. If your ISP doesn’t carry alt.med.endometriosis (most of them carry alt.support.endometriosis but not all carry alt.med.endometriosis) you might look for us by I hope this might be helpful. –Susan Strandskov >I would like to find out about an experimental treatment for >endometriosis using aromatase inhibitors…any leads? >– >Darrell B Lazarus, PhD
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>Does anyone know of alternative treatments for endometriosis? The doctor >who’s treating me thinks that hysterectomy is the only option, and I’m not >enthralled with that idea. >Thanks for your help!
Many people have reported help with many human ailments by spending some time on a general body detoxication program. Below find such a detox routine that’s been used successfully in England for many years. Please do check with a nutritionally-oriented health professional before giving this a try&